MAP scores Spring 2014

June 9, 2014 at 7:57 pm 176 comments

Cat on laptop

Got spring MAP scores today – anyone else?

These scores will be used for admissions into Academic Centers, SEHS, Military HS, and IB programs.

There IS information about a retest.  The child can take the Fall MAP to use as the score for selective enrollment.  If they take that test, they MUST use that score, even if it’s lower. Students can re-take math, reading, or both.  The re-test form has to be submitted by Sept 5th.

cps.oae says informtion about re-testing will be available in June.

You can sign up for updates here:

http://www.cpsoae.org/apps/forms2/?f=242

 

Thought about MAP? Scores? The re-testing process? (summer tutoring anyone?)  Have you determined if your child is in/out of the running for a program?

 

Another question that came up in a discussion with a parent in my class – should the schools be giving the “good time slots” for the MAP tests to the classes that are vital for selective enrollment admission?  My son’s class had what may have been the worst day to take the math test (friday after they’d spent 3 days at an overnight class trip, exhausted – Friday at 2:30-3:30 pm (per my son.))  The challenge with MAP tests (unlike the ISATs in booklets) is that classes have to take turns with timing because of the computer usage issue.  So somebody is going to get the early morning slot and somebody is going to get the end-of-day Friday slot.

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Bullying in CPS and at Ogden (new Trib Article) Increasing diversity in Selective Enrollment high schools

176 Comments Add your own

  • 1. nweamom  |  June 9, 2014 at 8:23 pm

    Saw the info on the other thread. We get a printout of our scores on Thursday, but spoke with my kid’s teacher and my 5th Grade son’s scores were:

    Math: 266
    Reading: 244

    According to the percentile breakdown linked in the other thread, this is > 99% and 98-99% respectively. Anticipating all As for final report card. Obviously can’t predict yet the SE in 6th grade, but son would really like an AC spot at Lane. We are Tier 4, so we will need everything we can get. Any thoughts? Thanks!

  • 2. cpsobsessed  |  June 9, 2014 at 8:24 pm

    Seems very promising!!

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 3. realchicagomama  |  June 9, 2014 at 10:32 pm

    Is the MAP the same as the NWEA scores? My kids got their scores last week, but I seem to only recall percentiles, not a breakdown. I’ll have to look again.

  • 4. Momof3  |  June 9, 2014 at 10:35 pm

    My 1st grader got 197 in math and 200 in English. Are these are good scores for 1st grade(?)

  • 5. realchicagomama  |  June 9, 2014 at 10:36 pm

    Yikes – good thing I’m not in the “SE or bust” camp – my kids’ scores are not even close to the upper 90s percentiles.

  • 6. IBobsessed  |  June 9, 2014 at 10:59 pm

    My kid’s class got a pizza lunch from the teacher for being the class that showed the highest score increase on the Spring MAP test. I find this ridiculous. What exactly are they being rewarded for? Do we even know what, if anything, these students did that resulted in the highest increase? So what behavior is the pizza party trying to reinforce? How about a pizza party for consistently completing homework, something that we know is under a student’s control?

  • 7. MAP testing  |  June 9, 2014 at 11:39 pm

    “What exactly are they being rewarded for? Do we even know what, if anything, these students did that resulted in the highest increase?”

    They learned material over the course of year/semester (whatever the comparison period is) and were able to demonstrate that knowledge on the test. And they did it better than any of the other grades. Those are good things. (Strictly speaking, the score gain should have been assessed relative to expectations, or something similar, as the expected growth in RIT points declines going up in grades.)

  • 8. cpsobsessed  |  June 9, 2014 at 11:54 pm

    @6 IBO – yeah, I’m not a fan of rewarding good test scores, as I think there is somewhat of a genetic/socio-economic component.

    I suppose if the teacher ties it to “you guys worked really hard to learn all this stuff and you did homework, studied, etc” it would feel better somehow.

    Or maybe I’m brainwashed by american society. I think in the book about successful school cultures (korea, finland) they would do stuff like rewarding good test scores – just another way to stress the importance of school achievement and make it meaningful to students.

  • 9. Patricia  |  June 10, 2014 at 7:12 am

    CPSO–LOL! Awesome picture and good to start the day with a laugh!

  • 10. MAP testing  |  June 10, 2014 at 7:13 am

    “I’m not a fan of rewarding good test scores, as I think there is somewhat of a genetic/socio-economic component.”

    Is it because it’s a standardized test that people have concerns? Are we opposed to honor rolls, awards based on classroom academic achievement (which depend on, among other things, test scores in class), etc.? Or is it the pizza that is objectionable?

  • 11. Patricia  |  June 10, 2014 at 7:17 am

    Re: pizza parties and rewards. It does depend on how it was done but I generally do not have a beef with these types of things. There are all kinds of reward ceremonies going on at year end. Most tie to academic achievement, but also good attendance etc.

  • 12. CPS alum  |  June 10, 2014 at 8:32 am

    Pizza party reward = “Thank you for taking the test seriously because your doing well makes me look good to all the administrators, politicians, and parents who judge the entirety of my teaching on your performance on one test. “.

  • 13. cpsobsessed  |  June 10, 2014 at 8:37 am

    I guess by tying the prize to “improvement” I’m okay with it. That implies learning and work.
    Whereas I wouldn’t want, say, the highest scoring kids in the school to get a special pizza party as that’s more tied to innate intelligence.

    However, is it odd to reward a class for academic achievement when it’s more a personal achievement?
    I do think it’s a nice way to promote class bonding though, although it wasn’t a group effort in any way. Or was it somehow??

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 14. parent  |  June 10, 2014 at 8:44 am

    @ Patricia, Actually I think the perfect attendance awards are strange. It’s something the kid has no control over. Are they encouraging parents to send kids to school when they’re sick? I don’t get it.

  • 15. MAP testing  |  June 10, 2014 at 8:53 am

    “Whereas I wouldn’t want, say, the highest scoring kids in the school to get a special pizza party as that’s more tied to innate intelligence.”

    Isn’t that what honor roll type awards are (I realize they are not denominated in slices of pizza)? Are you opposed to those? Maybe the idea of awards based on grades seems better because it’s less of a pure “IQ” test, but MAP tests are, as I understand it, in principle designed to measure subject knowledge rather than “IQ”.

    “I do think it’s a nice way to promote class bonding though, although it wasn’t a group effort in any way. Or was it somehow??”

    It was a group effort at least in the sense that it was based on the collective efforts of the group, in the way that some academic team competitions are. Also, presumably there is some impact of having a classroom conducive to learning during the course of the year, which depends at least a little bit on the students’ cooperation.

  • 16. CPS Parent  |  June 10, 2014 at 8:58 am

    6. IBobsessed – Regarding “How about a pizza party for consistently completing homework, something that we know is under a student’s control?”

    MAP scores are completely under a student’s control since they measure individual progress with adapted starting and ending points for each student.

    Doing a good job with homework is exactly what this class must have done as validated by the good MAP progress. The pizza itself is actually irrelevant; it’s the joy of celebrating a collective accomplishment.

  • 17. Patricia  |  June 10, 2014 at 9:07 am

    @12. I give teachers more credit. They know ways to motivate and reward the kids. Why not? Also, it sounds like the party was for academic growth, which is what we want our kids to do right?

    @14. Attendance can be weird. It is probably more rooted in trying to have kids not “skip” school and is usually tied to students not being tardy, which is a good thing IMO. I do not think the motivator is to send kids to school sick. I also do not think kids are crushed if they were sick and did NOT get a perfect attendance award. I see it as a benign type of recognition.

    I guess overall, I do not scrutinize the awards stuff too much. I leave it to the school and teachers who know what motivates kids. I am also a parent who hates that in our culture today kids get trophies because a parent paid for a class, not because kids earned or achieved anything. Too much coddling, not what the real world is like. That said, I am all for building self-esteem especially in the under 5 age group—stickers for all :-)

  • 18. AE  |  June 10, 2014 at 9:09 am

    @ momof3 — I think (based on the NWEA 2011 norm chart) that the first grade scores you posted translate to:

    spring G1 reading 200 = 94th percentile
    spring G1 math 197 = 92nd percentile

    (So, I would say those are good scores :-)

    Regarding the pizza party reward question, I think it is somewhat distinguishable from honor roll. Honor roll is an individual award recognizing that child’s collective work over an entire year. On the other hand, the pizza party is presumably based on a class average using just a few hours of test-taking to define success. Plus, it is based on a test (MAP) that is supposed to be used to inform teacher instruction rather than define student achievement (at least that’s my layperson understanding). Finally, I’m not convinced kids can be incentivized or motivated by a reward to score higher on the MAP test (with the exception of maybe a few kids who would otherwise blow it off). If all it takes is just a few slices of pizza to improve scores on the MAP test, maybe I’ll try it with my own kids in the fall!

  • 19. west rogers park mom  |  June 10, 2014 at 9:25 am

    I am thinking of having my 5th grader re-take her reading score but not math (it’s almost too good to be true that they have the option to retake not one but the other). She has consistently scored b/w 97-99 on reading and ended up with a 91 this time around. And while her math has been as high as 98 it has also been in the low 80’s in the past.

    I am well aware that the AC test is very difficult and the few % points she may gain won’t matter if she can’t perform well on that test. However, my bigger concern is her downward trend in general- after all she is supposed to be in an accelerated class, working 1-2 grade levels ahead. It seems to me to be a trigger that there are gaps in the teaching.

    sigh

  • 20. Jones2  |  June 10, 2014 at 9:28 am

    What are the requirements for students to be allowed to re-take test?

  • 21. CPS Parent  |  June 10, 2014 at 9:29 am

    What will motivate them is the thought of not wanting to disappoint each other. Each kid will pay attention, do homework, and try harder to be a good student out of respect for the whole group.

    The nice thing about the MAP is that it looks at individual progress. I believe most teacher appreciate the MAP and if a test is to be used for teacher performance, the MAP seems like a fair choice. Another good thing; it is published by NWEA which is a not-for-profit entity.

  • 22. momofmany  |  June 10, 2014 at 9:47 am

    My 5th grader scored a 243 Reading (98%tile) and a 271 Math (>99%tile). Hoping for Lane AC. Tier 4. Her math MAP score was the best in 5th grade in her school. The teachers told the kids that the test didn’t matter that it was only to see how they’re learning AND they treated this years ISAT as excruciatingly important. My daughter knew what was what because she has been extremely involved in the process, but I think many parents will be in for a surprise come fall when they go to apply to schools.

  • 23. AE  |  June 10, 2014 at 9:52 am

    @ 21 I guess my point is (at least with my own children) paying attention and doing homework do not necessarily translate into higher or improved MAP scores. Test conditions, anxieties, etc. have a significant impact on MAP. Also, a lack of exposure to significantly above-grade level material makes RIT growth at the highest levels difficult to achieve. On the other hand, in my opinion, honor roll (based on good grades) more directly correlates to things like homework completion and paying attention. Is the pizza party a big deal? No, of course not. I’m just not sure it rewards anything more than the good luck of being placed in a class with a slightly higher growth average.

    Also, for what it’s worth, I agree the MAP test is a useful tool. For example, I was able to learn that one of my kids has a much harder time with non-fiction texts, and have been able to add a more non-fiction reading at home. I think the MAP can be helpful if used for its intended purpose (as defined on the NWEA website, “Created by educators for educators, MAP assessments provide detailed, actionable data about where each child is on their unique learning path.”)

  • 24. cpsobsessed  |  June 10, 2014 at 9:55 am

    Momofmany, is she in an accellerated program?

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 25. momofmany  |  June 10, 2014 at 10:09 am

    In regards to whether or not you can motivate a kid to do better on the MAP. You absolutely can motivate them, but they have to put in the hard work. My daughter went up 41 points between winter and spring MAP, from a 80-81%tile to >99%tile. Her school does NOT distribute scores to parents. I had to ask to sneak in between appts. on report card pickup day to get the score from her math teacher, who thought it was a great score and awesome that she already met her spring “goal.”

    I looked it up in the chart and told my daughter what %tile it was and what score she needed for 99%tile. I also explained to her that she is in competition with kids that are being taught 2 grade levels ahead, and that it isn’t her fault that they aren’t teaching her enough at school, but that she does have to make up for it at home if she wants to get into an AC. We then came up with a plan, and she did Khan Academy 1 hr/day everyday and 3 hr/day during spring break until she took the spring math MAP.

    We also went over test-taking strategy with her. Since MAP is both untimed, and responsive we told her to work every problem twice. One careless arithmetic error can wreck a child’s score because the test will respond by presenting easier problems. She said that she caught about 5 problems with mistakes by doing each problem twice.

  • 26. momofmany  |  June 10, 2014 at 10:14 am

    cpsobsessed, no she is in her neighborhood school. This is our first year in CPS. We moved from out of state during the summer so that was our only option for public.

    She was just offered a 3rd round 6th grade seat at Pritzker RGC, so she will be there next year.

    If I knew she would get into Lane AC, I would keep her at her current school for 6th so she wouldn’t have to keep switching, but that seems dicey.

  • 27. IBobsessed  |  June 10, 2014 at 10:22 am

    I wonder if the margin of error for the MAP was compared to the student gains? What is the margin of error? Was it larger than the student class gain?
    One of my student’s scores dropped from 99th percentile to 98th, but the grade level equivalent did not change, so how is that a significant change?

    Grades and homework are what deserve receive awards, imo. Standardized tests were originally intended as a single measure achievement, now we have made them an end in themselves. We learn to get a high test score?

  • 28. IBobsessed  |  June 10, 2014 at 10:25 am

    Intended to type “as only one measure of achievement.”

  • 29. walker  |  June 10, 2014 at 12:08 pm

    I have a special sheet over my son’s bed with steep progressive test rewards depending on what percentile he gets (<90% no reward). When he gets a decent result I keep telling him that it's only because his hard work in school and extra work at home.

  • 30. Peter  |  June 10, 2014 at 12:28 pm

    Dear lord, are people really complaining about a pizza party to celebrate? No wonder our world is so screwed up.

  • 31. Another Mommy  |  June 10, 2014 at 12:46 pm

    Peter- My thoughts EXACTLY! Good Lord, leave it up to someone to complain about something so mundane.

  • 32. IBobsessed  |  June 10, 2014 at 12:50 pm

    Its not the pizza party, it’s what is being celebrated that is the issue @30; A snapshot of a student’s achievement on a single day out of the year. Teachers springing for pizza (no gross CPS lunch, yay) for a whole class IS a big deal to 7th graders. Concentrate on instilling a love of learning and you naturally get high achievement.

    People sure have alot of faith that MAP scores completely and accurately reflect academic excellence.

  • 33. momofmany  |  June 10, 2014 at 1:36 pm

    IBobsessed,

    The narrowing of the curriculum and test prep culture does make me incredibly sad for my kids. I wish the schools would focus on the whole child, and inspiration-based learning.

    However, the current system is what we have to work with. I don’t think that MAP scores completely and accurately depict anything, but I have to work with what CPS gives us. Our neighborhood high school has a Great Schools rating of 1/10. It is not a viable option, and so my kid has to play the testing game. I would love to be able to send all of my kids to a great neighborhood elementary and neighborhood high school that offer real differentiation, strong academic opportunities, and the arts, but that doesn’t exist for them. So instead, I am going to have 5 kids in 5 places next yr, trying desperately to give them whatever opportunities I can, and knowing that there is a lot that I cannot give them.

  • 34. MAP testing  |  June 10, 2014 at 1:55 pm

    “I wonder if the margin of error for the MAP was compared to the student gains? What is the margin of error? Was it larger than the student class gain?”

    Given the size of the standard errors I’ve seen, the growth was almost certainly statistically significantly different from zero. (The more relevant question may be whether the growth for the highest was statistically significantly different from that of the next highest class, but then again, that is not how we give out awards, or pizza parties.)

    “Grades and homework are what deserve receive awards, imo.”

    Maybe it’s not a pizza party, but there are awards for grades too, no? And I personally don’t care too much for homework. There’s way too much of it. I wish skipping homework was less of a deal, or really, that there was less homework in the first place.

  • 35. MAP testing  |  June 10, 2014 at 1:58 pm

    “Its not the pizza party, it’s what is being celebrated that is the issue…A snapshot of a student’s achievement on a single day out of the year.”

    “The narrowing of the curriculum and test prep culture does make me incredibly sad for my kids.”

    I’m sure it differs across schools, but I was pleased that there really didn’t seem to be much test prep for MAP in my kid’s school. Given that, it’s a test on material they learned this year. I don’t have a problem with it. And it did seem pretty accurate, including the breakout scores by subtopic.

  • 36. momofmany  |  June 10, 2014 at 2:09 pm

    @35 There wasn’t MAP prepping at my kids school either, which is why I had to do it at home. They did prep the kids for the ISAT, though, and had them completely freaked out about it, which made no sense to me.

    “Given that, it’s a test on material they learned this year. I don’t have a problem with it.”

    The problem with MAP testing for the purposes of AC/SEHS admissions is that they are not being tested on what they have been taught that year. In order to get a high enough score they need to know material that they have NEVER been taught, scoring many grade levels ahead.

  • 37. Here we go  |  June 10, 2014 at 3:18 pm

    I heard that NWEA MAP will be re-normed this summer. We are all looking at the 2011 norms for percentiles, but this will change. Anyone have more info on this?

  • 38. realchicagomama  |  June 10, 2014 at 4:13 pm

    @33 – But at the same time, if they did focus on that, you may not see the gains on MAP that you did. Our school does focus on the whole child, and is a well-regarded magnet with a well-rounded, integrative curriculum. My 5th grader is reading at an 8th grade level, but his reading score on MAP actually dropped between winter and spring this year. If I wanted him to get into SEHS, I’d already be freaking out that his scores are tracking in the low 90s percentiles for reading and his math scores are all over the place (80th-99th at various points over the past 2 years). The comparative nature of these tests show me that he’s doing well compared to the district and the national norms, but also reveal that he’s not going to get into an SEHS.

  • 39. Momof3  |  June 10, 2014 at 7:51 pm

    We tend to forget we were kids once and small things like a pizza party regardless of the purpose were fun. There are real issues out there to complain about.

  • 40. cpsobsessed  |  June 10, 2014 at 7:55 pm

    I think it’s an interesting discussion point, not so much about pizza parties, but the idea of rewards for 1. Academic achievement 2. Standardized test rewards which carry a lot of baggage these days withing cps, even for kids.
    It’s similar to the general hoopla that has sort of surrounded the ISAT in the past, which seems strange compared to when I was a kid.
    We just showed up and took the annual test without prep, no homework that week, reminders to eat breakfast, and mints on our desks to eat during the test.

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 41. SR  |  June 10, 2014 at 10:10 pm

    Some of you have mentioned break out scores in subtopics or MAP assessments. Is that something you requested from your school? Is it something the teacher or someone else would need to compile upon special request? I’m kind of curious about my kid’s results (beyond the score that we received) but he’s young enough that I don’t need to make extra work for anyone.

  • 42. Di  |  June 10, 2014 at 10:48 pm

    I don’t get all the posts about the pizza party. Move on.

  • 43. walker  |  June 11, 2014 at 6:27 am

    @41 I asked my son’s teachers a few times to printed out me those detailed results (~15 pages, only teachers can access them). They were pretty useful in understanding what he needs to learn and where he probably failed. I should admit that I was only the parent in our class who has ever asked to do that. So, don’t be surprised if your teacher has no clue what you ask her to do.

    You can also find useful: http://www.foridahoteachers.org/curriculum_ladders.htm

    I’ve paid pretty close attention to NWEA MAP over last two years (K-1st grade) and this spring my son (1st grader) got 215 Math (99-99%-99) making a steady progress from 78%. I found useful a few things:

    >90% means 1-2 grades above. If your school doesn’t have an accelerated program or your child doesn’t work extra at 1-2+ grade level, there is no way to cross the 90-95 threshold.

    NWEA works as a ladder. It means the system won’t ask advanced concepts until a test taker successfully passes less advanced ones. In other words, any “holes” in knowledge will hurt the results twice as some advanced skills will be undetected by the system.

    Test-related stress and anxiety. Probably the most important thing I have to teach my kids is how to combat stress and anxiety when they take tests. I learned a few techniques in my life in a hard way and I hope to pass those skills over to my kids. So far we’ve managed to avoid any stress/anxiety issues at all but it will be always on my radar.

    Test-obsessed environment. I’m fine with it… not happy but fine and I don’t think it’s just a CPS issue. There is a need for relatively objective skill assessments. Tests are bad but there is nothing better so far.

    And about that pizza party (sorry, just can’t avoid it, although it looks like trolling to me)… My kids love pizza and they would be more than happy to have an extra pizza party no matter what’s the reason :)

  • 44. CarolA  |  June 11, 2014 at 6:32 am

    @41SR: Yes, your child’s teacher would have access to the breakout scores. It’s not a big deal to get them printed out. I wouldn’t mind doing it for a parent if they requested it. But…I guess I can only speak for myself. These scores have been available for some time now so I’m not quite sure why you are only getting the results now. The composite score is available to the student instantly…it shows up on their screen at the end of the test. They are available to the teacher the following day. The breakout scores are a fantastic way to know what categories your child is excelling at and where you can focus your attention if you’d like to see improvement. Teachers may be quite busy these last few days of school, but most of us have some time in the day that it can be printed quickly. In the future, see if you can ask for them shortly after the test is given. Most teachers are signed on and looking at them anyway, so it’s no big deal to print it out. I’m not sure if there’s a print out for individual students with the breakout scores, but it only takes seconds for him/her to write them down if it’s on a class list. Ask if you are interested. Teachers should be more than happy if a parent wants to know.

  • 45. MAP testing  |  June 11, 2014 at 8:26 am

    “I asked my son’s teachers a few times to printed out me those detailed results (~15 pages, only teachers can access them).”

    “your child’s teacher would have access to the breakout scores. It’s not a big deal to get them printed out. I wouldn’t mind doing it for a parent if they requested it.”

    What we have received is a single sheet of paper with the student’s scores (including prior scores) on one side and a reference sheet on the other. The scores include the overall score and score ranges for four different categories. (The categories are e.g. things like measurement or arithmetic for math. I don’t have those exactly right but they are something like that.) Is there yet more detail that the teachers can access? Or are the “15 pages” the reporting for the teachers on all of the students in a class? Are there 15 pages or so on each student?

  • 46. MAP testing  |  June 11, 2014 at 8:28 am

    “I don’t get all the posts about the pizza party. Move on.”

    I think we also need to understand what type of pizza, what toppings (if any), and which restaurant to fully evaluate, before we can move on.

  • 47. MAP testing  |  June 11, 2014 at 8:34 am

    “>90% means 1-2 grades above. If your school doesn’t have an accelerated program or your child doesn’t work extra at 1-2+ grade level, there is no way to cross the 90-95 threshold.”

    I don’t have any proof but I’m not sure this is true. It is certainly true that the 90th percentile score in a given grade will be above the median score for a grade or two above and in that sense the child has a score above grade level. I tend to think that a child that had a very solid understanding of grade level material could score in the low 90s (I suspect they could not score in the high 90s, which is certainly an issue for AC/SEHS admission.). After all, the median student a grade or two above may not understand significant portions of material taught a grade or two ago.

  • 48. IBobsessed  |  June 11, 2014 at 8:48 am

    It is valuable to take a step back from obsessing about our own child’s achievement on standardized tests, and reflect on how they fit in to their overall development and education as a whole, and what messages we are sending to our children with these tests. If that’s being a troll, then I’m on the wrong forum. Hilarious.

    I don’t understand why questioning pizza parties is so irritating. Can’t we think below the surface of things and think outside the box here awhile?

    Rather than providing the opportunity for students to demonstrate a higher level of reasoning ability, or carry out any form of extended analysis, standardized tests stress a more superficial level of reasoning, and are most typically extensive exercises in short term memory. (Test prep companies capitalize on this.)

    Though they are objective, in the sense that they are sometimes scored by machines, they are decidedly subjective, in that they are created by human beings. People write the questions, which may be confusing, biased, or even stupid. Furthermore, people decided which questions to include, and which ones to exclude.

  • 49. CLB  |  June 11, 2014 at 9:16 am

    Never been a fan of either honor roll or class parties for academic achievement or attendance (indeed, horrid incentive to send kids into school sick). If you want a party to celebrate the end of the year, fine.

    But one thing we know from multiple, replicated studies is that rewards of this type have the opposite effect that you would think — students and adults become less interested in a task or activity if they are given a reward or incentive to do it. Montessori emphasized this observationally but it has been repeatedly confirmed by experimental, control v. treatment studies. The only exception is a task that they find dull or unpleasant — then the reward or incentive works as expected. So, if you think that learning is dull and unpleasant, by all means, reward. But good luck in college, where the faculty doesn’t give a shit how the students feel: sink or swim.

  • 50. MAP testing  |  June 11, 2014 at 9:18 am

    “standardized tests…are most typically extensive exercises in short term memory”

    Is this really true for MAP? I thought they were essentially just the type of subject tests that you might get in a class on addition, subtraction, etc. I know that our kid’s class didn’t do any type of preparation for the test, other than reminders to get a good night’s sleep and breakfast. I would be much more opposed to the testing if they did spend time practicing or preparing.

    I agree that these tests can’t test some of the deeper learning our children are hopefully engaged in. But that doesn’t mean it’s not serving some useful purpose, such as assessing whether kids are learning the concrete skills they have been learning in class. At least in our experience, I don’t think the testing was that significant an event for the class. I think they were much more invested in the science fair and classroom presentations they did than MAP. Then again, I don’t know whether a pizza party would change the balance of things.

  • 51. CLB  |  June 11, 2014 at 9:25 am

    @17 Rewarding people for just showing up is a bad idea. For college and career (and I’m serious here because usually this phrased is used inappropriately) , students should realize that no one cares if you just show up. The “attendance is a virtue” mentality trips up lots of kids in college: the “but I attended every class” plea is the lamest one. Maybe you did, but so what? As I would tell college students “They say that 90% of life is just showing up. Welcome to the other 10%.”

    There is a fair argument for making sure that children are punctual. But if punctuality is an expectation, you shouldn’t get rewarded for doing it because we shouldn’t reward people for doing things that they are supposed to do anyway. Cops don’t hand out lolly-pops to drivers who stop at the stop sign.

  • 52. walker  |  June 11, 2014 at 10:02 am

    @43 ” Or are the “15 pages” the reporting for the teachers on all of the students in a class? Are there 15 pages or so on each student?”

    15 pages only for my son with 75%/50%/25% probability topics for each section.

  • 53. CLB  |  June 11, 2014 at 10:12 am

    @41, 43-45:

    The 15 pages is not an analysis of what your child did. Those are NWEA’s DesCartes (think “the map” not Rene) goal strands. Each test does not measure all of the skills under the ten-point RIT range; it only samples a few of them. This is why the test cannot pin-point exactly what aspect of “literature” or “measurement and data” among between 30 and 50 different aspects that are covered in any 10-point RIT range. The sub-scores are reported at as Low LowAvg Avg HiAvg High, or percentile quintiles because the standard error on the sub-scores is too high to make the exact number meaningful.

    Here’s an actual student’s report after the winter test (note the Fall 2012 test is not the MAP but the MAP for Primary grades, and so is not comparable to the two later tests but NWEA’s database doesn’t code it clearly, so it falsely shows negative growth between fall 12 and spring 13.)

    Even the composite scores are usually misinterpreted. If you have math RIT score of say 217-220-223, that means that there is a 68% chance that the true score lies within that range, with 220 being the best estimate. Likewise, for the percentile. We could give you a range that has a 95% probability of encompassing the true score or percentile, but the range would be so broad that it would useless for teacher’s purposes.

    This is why you should take these reports with a grain of salt. If you have other evidence that your child is having trouble with “informational text” and the MAP subscore shows lower performance in that area than others, then you have good reason to think that your child needs to work on it. If your child is doing well as far as you and the teacher can tell w/ non-fiction but the subscore shows lower info text performance, it’s a fluke. Even NWEA suggests that students have bad testing sessions, which is why they push a fall-winter-spring cycle and do not recommend that the test be used for promotion, evaluation, or admission decisions. It is designed to be used only to guide instruction, not make summary conclusions. CPS is misusing the test for purposes of promotion, admission, evaluation, and school quality ratings.

  • 54. edgewatermom  |  June 11, 2014 at 10:23 am

    I wonder why some schools provide the parents with the MAP results and some do not. Does anybody know what the “norm” is? We have not received them yet this year, but they may come home with the end of year report card.

  • 55. IBobsessed  |  June 11, 2014 at 10:25 am

    “CPS is misusing the test for purposes of promotion, admission, evaluation, and school quality ratings.”

    They know this, and it might explain why, for the 1st time ever, you can argue adverse circumstances and apply for re-testing in the fall and use the score to replace spring testing. Unless they change their minds, that is.

  • […] MAP scores Spring 2014 CPS Obsessed: Got spring MAP scores today – anyone else? These scores will be used for admissions into Academic Centers, SEHS, Military HS, and IB programs. […]

  • 57. CLB  |  June 11, 2014 at 10:41 am

    @52
    That is not correct. What that report says is that given the RIT band your child, another student or a group of students scored in, there is a 73% chance that any of those students would be able to correctly answer a question about the items in the RIT band below where they actually scored, a 50% chance that they would answer one correctly within the RIT band they scored at, and 27% chance they would answer one correctly in the RIT band above where they scored.

    They are not based on analysis of how your child or my child actually preformed on items in those sub-groups. Rather they show what children in the norming sample who had a similar score to your child or my child could do.

  • 58. CLB  |  June 11, 2014 at 10:56 am

    @54 At some schools, faculty are aware of the illusion of accuracy that the tests display and so don’t want to send home reports that parents have a hard time understanding. As is clear here, some people are not sure what the results actually mean.

    Or they do not want to engage in a pointless discussion over whether the child is not doing well in math solely because he scored at 75th percentile. They might use the reports only with some parents whose children are not doing well and who are resistant to the message (e.g., “Look, I know you think your child doesn’t deserve a C even though he has trouble with multiplication and you think my tests are unfair, but here’s a standardized test that confirms what I’ve been saying.”).

    We got winter reports at report card pickup, and they handed out reports for the spring that were available to some parents who attended a session with the network data analyst. I assume we will get the spring ones at the end of the term.

  • 59. walker  |  June 11, 2014 at 11:49 am

    @CLB In his report (K) I see that my son has 171-180 RIT Range in “Number and Operations in Base Ten” then I see subcategories and ~ 40 items like “(RIT)175 Rounds a given number to the nearest 10 (<= 100; 2-digit number". All items are with RIT range from 163 to 190 and I know if he can master all those items, he will move to 190+ RIT. For me it's a pretty good road map and much better then just commutative RIT.

  • 60. Chris  |  June 11, 2014 at 12:00 pm

    walker: “>90% means 1-2 grades above. If your school doesn’t have an accelerated program or your child doesn’t work extra at 1-2+ grade level, there is no way to cross the 90-95 threshold.”

    Um, no.

    My kid is not in an accelerated program and is not doing extra work (heck, doesn’t do all of the the *assigned* work) and has crossed the 90-95 ‘threshold’ each time given the MAP. And did better on the MAP each time than on the last ISAT test, so not pure testing ‘skill’.

    Sure, just one data point, but there is certainly “some way”, which falsifies your premise.

  • 61. MAP testing  |  June 11, 2014 at 12:00 pm

    “But one thing we know from multiple, replicated studies is that rewards of this type have the opposite effect that you would think — students and adults become less interested in a task or activity if they are given a reward or incentive to do it. Montessori emphasized this observationally but it has been repeatedly confirmed by experimental, control v. treatment studies. The only exception is a task that they find dull or unpleasant — then the reward or incentive works as expected.”

    Can you point to the relevant literature? I know there is a camp that is against incentives and maybe that camp thinks the issue is resolved but I also think there are others that think it can be effective and does not eliminate intrinsic motivation. It is rare that any issue about education is clearly settled.

  • 62. Just a thought  |  June 11, 2014 at 12:16 pm

    This isn’t new. Twenty-five years ago, they used pizza parties in my school to reward the class with the best improvement in scores, as well as the class with the highest aggregate percentile.

    Those who had perfect scores had their names published on an honor roll, and given nominal gift certificates to the big regional mall.

    Similar competitions were done in terms of physical fitness, attendance, and behavior metrics.

    The key here is to make enough of these not to discourage anyone from trying. If you are always “up for something”, it is amazing how one positive behavior reinforces another.

  • 63. CLB  |  June 11, 2014 at 12:29 pm

    @59 So he is on the MPG (MAP for Primary Grades). There is a different reporting system for that because the “goals” or “strands” are grouped differently in the MPG v. the MAP (and also the MAP v. the MAP 6+). And MPG does provide % level correct reporting by various skills and sub-skills, like which consonant blends a child does well on or does not.

    That level of detail is not available at the regular MAP.

    That said, I know primary grade teachers at my school were not impressed with the quality of the MPG questions when they watched students taking the test in 2012. They sent critical feedback to NWEA (like “we saw a question that asked x but it was not clear whether it meant x’ or x”).

  • 64. CLB  |  June 11, 2014 at 12:39 pm

    @43, 62

    All >90th percentile means for any one child that has that rank is that the score the child received is equivalent to the score of a student in the norm group at the same grade who scored higher than 90% of the other norm group students at the same time in the year that your child took the test.

  • 65. Chris  |  June 11, 2014 at 12:44 pm

    CLB: “All >90th percentile means”

    yeahyeahyeah. We’ve beaten the point of what %-ile means to death. I meant to say *nothing* about that portion of Walker’s comment.

    I should have further edited the quote I used–I was objecting to Walker’s characterization of what in- and out-of- school exposure is “necessary” to get a 90+ %-ile. Accelerated program and/or extracurricular exposure is *not* “necessary”.

  • 66. Peter  |  June 11, 2014 at 1:06 pm

    “I don’t understand why questioning pizza parties is so irritating. Can’t we think below the surface of things and think outside the box here awhile?”

    Of course you if you feel it’s important, and I will continue to point out how stupid it sounds. I honestly can’t understand how celebrating this is detrimental. So many parents these complain about the stupidest stuff, it’s driving me nuts.

  • 67. Peter  |  June 11, 2014 at 1:08 pm

    @62, exactly. I feel very sorry for teacher who have to put up with all these idiot parents.

    Idiot parent: “Oh, my little johnny is so special”

    Me: “No he’s not. Like most people he’s average, now shut up.”

  • 68. Peter  |  June 11, 2014 at 1:09 pm

    I am not a teacher and never have been.

  • 69. Just a thought  |  June 11, 2014 at 1:28 pm

    @58 “At some schools, faculty are aware of the illusion of accuracy that the tests display and so don’t want to send home reports that parents have a hard time understanding. As is clear here, some people are not sure what the results actually mean.

    Or they do not want to engage in a pointless discussion over whether the child is not doing well in math solely because he scored at 75th percentile. ”

    Fascinating….some some schools are sitting on data points that are relevant to individual kid’s progress? All because they see discussions as pointless? Glad to see it is teachers and administrators making this judgment, and not parents!!

    At my kid’s school, they send home test scores, as well as a progression by particular class through the years, and scores across each individual grade level. They also have an explanation section in what amounts to fourth grade language, and at the bottom saying all questions can be directed towards the administration.

  • 70. walker  |  June 11, 2014 at 1:33 pm

    About >90%. Let’s look at some numbers
    (Math, Spring, 1st grade, 2011 norm data)
    90-95% –> RIT 195 – 200

    Example of 195-200:

    RIT 197: Solves a multiplication word problem (1-digit factors; product <=50)

    Basically, it's a time table. According to CCS there is no multiplication in 1st grade, in 2nd grade it sounds like "Work with equal groups of objects to gain foundations for multiplication" and only in 3rd grade there is the times table. So, it's ~1.5 grades above. Do I miss something?

  • 71. walker  |  June 11, 2014 at 1:43 pm

    @63 “So he is on the MPG (MAP for Primary Grades). ”

    Yeah, maybe that’s why we have a bit different opinions as we are talking about two different reports. Well, now I know that in the future MAP will be not so useful for me when I move from MPG.

  • 72. AE  |  June 11, 2014 at 2:42 pm

    @70 I think you’re about right. My 5 year old (regular old neighborhood kindergartener) received a 183 (96th percentile) in math, and came home from school on test day asking what “times” meant. An accelerated math program would certainly seem to give kids (who are ready to handle such a curriculum!) a better shot at a high MAP score. However, I think in the younger years, bright kids do pick up above-grade-level concepts in an enriching home/school environment, or can logically take grade level concepts to the next level on their own. On the other hand, my experience in the older grades (I have big kids too), is that it is harder to learn above-grade-level concepts in math without actual accelerated instruction. Not many 11 year olds pick up the quadratic formula by osmosis — although I suppose some do.

  • 73. CLB  |  June 11, 2014 at 3:20 pm

    @69″ Fascinating….some some schools are sitting on data points that are relevant to individual kid’s progress? All because they see discussions as pointless? Glad to see it is teachers and administrators making this judgment, and not parents!!”

    They aren’t sitting on relevant data points. They are sitting on irrelevant data. That’s the illusion part. If a child had a B last semester and has a B in the current quarter and ranks at the 75th percentile, the test hasn’t told you anything that you didn’t already know. I can look at the window to see if it is raining. I don’t need the teacher to email me — hey, it’s raining. Better bring an umbrella to pickup.

    The MAP will not tell you which of 30-50 skills a student can do, so the teacher who already knows where the child is weak from daily observation and has discussed it with the student and parents has no reason to send the parents a report that says, if properly understood, there’s a 68% chance that your child ranks higher than 75% of the other children in the norm group for math, and that on all sub-categories he also is within the 2nd highest quintile in the norm group.

    There’s at best a month of school left; no radical change is going to occur between now and then. The data might be helpful to next year’s teacher, however.

    If the student has an A and scores in the 75th percentile, the test result is likely a fluke. There is no immediate re-take opportunity, so you can’t test and see if that is the case. (Since we don’t cryogenically freeze our children after the spring MAP until the fall, if you wait until fall to re-test, a higher result could be due to summer tutoring; a lower or the same result could be due summer learning loss). If your kid is getting a D and scores in the 90th percentile, or has an A and scores in the 10th pctl, then something’s up. I expect that teacher would contact parents and talk with the student then.

    I’ve seen some parents freak over meaningless variation in the RIT score. In the example @53, I know that a 231 in the reading RIT in spring 14 is not meaningfully different from a 233 in Winter 14. She didn’t “learn less.” She scored the same; the 2 points are stochastic. She’s still most likely in the 99th percentile. The test isn’t structured to give that level of accuracy in such a short time-span (late Dec. to mid-May). But I’ve had other parents comment that a similar RIT variation showed them that their kid slacked off. No, not true. Now these parents aren’t too bright about what the measures they are examining mean. But that’s part of the illusion of accuracy.

  • 74. Confidence Intervals  |  June 11, 2014 at 4:00 pm

    “a report that says, if properly understood, there’s a 68% chance that your child ranks higher than 75% of the other children in the norm group for math”

    That’s incorrect in at least two senses.

  • 75. Patricia  |  June 11, 2014 at 4:09 pm

    @53 “CPS is misusing the test for purposes of promotion, admission, evaluation, and school quality ratings.”

    I do not think it is fair to imply that CPS is intentionally misusing the MAPS test for the purposes you indicate. The ISAT composite is no longer available and the PARCC is not out yet nor proven yet, so CPS needed something to replace the ISAT in these promotion, etc decisions.

    The nationally normed percentage figure on the MAPS test that is being used is not ideal and CPS admitted that in a presentation I attended. They are not using the RiT or growth component, they are using the nationally normed percentage numbers which is the same type of representation that the nationally normed ISAT SAT 10 was. IMO the MAPS test is so much better than the annually dummied down ISAT that the nationally normed percentages are probably better than ISAT ever was.

    We will see what happens over time as the PARCC is implemented and proven. In the same presentation from CPS they indicated that they will not switch to PARCC for decisions right away since the test will be too new and not yet proven. So we are in for more transition in the future. I am certain the changes will hit on the critical years for my kids applying to sehs :-)

  • 76. CLB  |  June 11, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    @ 65 @70

    RIT 197: Solves a multiplication word problem (1-digit factors; product <=50)

    Basically, it's a time table. According to CCS there is no multiplication in 1st grade, in 2nd grade it sounds like "Work with equal groups of objects to gain foundations for multiplication" and only in 3rd grade there is the times table. So, it's ~1.5 grades above. Do I miss something?

    It’s no that you missed something but that you are conflating a norm-referenced test with a criterion referenced test, which is why I narrowly defined what a percentile rank means. MAP is normed, so it doesn’t matter what the CCSS are for a grade, but what the the top 9 percent of 1st graders, in this case, in the norm sample are capable of doing. While a CC-aligned MAP will include items that NWEA professionals believe assess the Common Core standards, the percentile rank is based solely on how those children in the norm group scored. Since the 2011 norms were set based on norming tests in fall 2009 and spring 2010, before CCSS were even approved, the RIT scores and percentiles are not aligned to the CCSS but to what students actually did. Even when norming studies are done with CCSS-based curricula, you will still be dependent on what the norm sample is. If no children from academically advanced programs are in the norm group, their skills won’t affect the RIT-percentile marks.

    Also, the skills and concepts that are listed under a RIT score band are the range of possible items in a domain of knowledge that could be tested and that someone in that RIT band should be more or less capable of doing some % of the time. It does not mean that items covering all those skills were given to any one student. As NWEA likes to say, each test is different for each child. It would take days or even weeks to take the test to have items for each specific skill in those domains, at which point mental exhaustion would better explain the results than actual capability. At best, a test asks only about limited samples from any domain of knowledge.

  • 77. CLB  |  June 11, 2014 at 4:51 pm

    @75. I agree that CPS officials did not set out to find a test that is inappropriate for what they are doing.

    But that does not change the fact that what they are doing is still the equivalent of a drunkard’s search (why are you looking for your keys here if you think you dropped them over there? ’cause this is where the light is). There is no psychometric justification for using percentile ranks on nationally normed tests to set achievement-based cutoffs. They are purely arbitrary. If the norm sample is any good, it is exceedingly unlikely that all students could ever pass them. If you are using norms to create the cut-offs, some people must fail. I have asked CPS for documents on the setting of the percentile ranks, and they don’t have them. They might be in the archives somewhere, but no one can tell you why the percentile ranks based on the norms are what they are in any substantial way. It was more “that number seems to high; that one too low.”

    Since 1996, when CPS first started using standardized test data (then the ITBS) for promotion purposes (and for more purposes since then), these tests have been used inappropriately. CPS, or really the mayors and the appointed boards, have never wanted to spend the money — and it would be considerable but not outlandishly so — to develop, pilot, and maintain standardized tests that are linked to the curriculums used in CPS schools and are designed around well-reasoned cut-points.

  • 78. Patricia  |  June 11, 2014 at 5:07 pm

    @77 So you are against any standardized test in the rubric for promotion, etc. ISAT was no better and arguably worse than MAPS.

    I would like your panacea of, “to develop, pilot, and maintain standardized tests that are linked to the curriculums used in CPS schools and are designed around well-reasoned cut-points.”

    Among the many problems with this idea is that there are currently as many curriculums as there are schools in CPS. OR those schools that “teach to the test” can be placed in one category of “curriculum” and other schools that have varying curriculums. I do not see how given the past with NCLB poor implementation dummying down curriculums nationwide, that this would have worked in CPS.

    Also, as a parent, I would not trust the internally focused test you describe. I want to know how my kid will stack up compared to others in a nationally normed sample. CPS focusing internally on CPS would be a disaster IMO. Who would determine the “well-reasoned cut-points”? The dynamics with CPS, CTU and actually measuring to show improvement in students would have perverse incentives.

    If all kids are taking the same test, then one can argue that they can be used comparatively. So are you a proponent for one entrance exam and that is it? Like New York does?

  • 79. CLB  |  June 12, 2014 at 10:03 am

    @78 “So you are against any standardized test in the rubric for promotion”

    No. I think there is a place for standardized test results in a promotion rubric, but what we have in CPS since 1996 is not a role in the rubric but only two measures: subject letter grade and test percentile, with a each being able to veto the other, without any formal appeals process. It’s not a rubric but a veto-mechanism. If the district population aligned with the norming group population, at least 10% (and up to 25% ) of the students would certainly fail to be promoted by the very nature of the test design. That’s the problem with using a norm-referenced test for criteria-relevant decisions.

    “I want to know how my kid will stack up compared to others in a nationally normed sample. ”

    That’s fine; many private schools do that every few years. You don’t need that for promotion purposes. Indeed, it’s irrelevant. Why do we care how a Chicago student compares to one from rural Idaho, especially when the state standards were different when the tests were normed? As we have already seen with SAT-10 v. MAP, how a child stacks up depends on 1) the test content and 2) the norming group. This is why many people saw non-trivial differences between between the SAT-10 percentiles and MAP ones.

  • 80. Chris  |  June 12, 2014 at 10:17 am

    ” If the district population aligned with the norming group population, at least 10% (and up to 25% ) of the students would certainly fail to be promoted”

    Fail to be *automatically* promoted. Can be promoted with summer school + summer exit exam passing.

  • 81. Patricia  |  June 12, 2014 at 10:57 am

    @79. It seems like for promotion, the weight of what the teacher deems as “passing” is equal to the standardized test number. If both show the child should not automatically be promoted, how is that a bad mechanism? There is a process with summer school, etc. for the child to catch up. Although, one can argue that there has been too much social promotion going on. What additional measures would you propose? Maybe more should be added?

    “Why do we care how a Chicago student compares to one from rural Idaho, especially when the state standards were different when the tests were normed?”

    Certainly some parents would not care how a Chicago kid compares to one from rural Idaho. However, applying to college, jobs, etc, it is exactly who kids compete against. On that note, shouldn’t we be aware of how students compare to those in other countries? it is a global economy after all.

    I do agree that state standards were probably different (just like CPS curriculum’s are currently different), but if a kid in a state with a “better” (whatever that would be) curriculum goes further on MAPS, that tells me as a parent that my kids school should step-it-up or we should move to rural idaho ;-) LOL! Or it sounds like you are saying Common Core is a good thing that will help with comparisons? Otherwise we measure ourselves against ourselves? If one does that, the world can easily pass us by.

  • 82. walker  |  June 12, 2014 at 11:12 am

    @CLB “Why do we care how a Chicago student compares to one from rural Idaho”

    I care not only about rural Idaho, but also about Finland, Singapore, and China because it’s about global competitiveness. So, I’d be more than happy to compare my kids to the global norm if such norm existed. For example, If my kids want to go to b-school, they will compete with the whole world and nobody will care which standards were used and in what states or countries.

  • 83. Norwood  |  June 12, 2014 at 11:57 am

    @82 walker

    Here is your international comparison: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/12/03/248329823/u-s-high-school-students-slide-in-math-reading-science

    It doesn’t look good. In math, for example, there’s a group of researchers from Stanford currently travelling the globe sitting in math classes. Except for South Korea (where students study until midnight), most countries just do it differently.

  • 84. CLB  |  June 12, 2014 at 5:58 pm

    But Finland and Singapore don’t care about norming or even relative standing until very late in the game. Finland doesn’t have a standardized exam until age 16, and Singapore recently decided to change their Primary School Leaving Exam (age 12) so that scores are reported in bands, rather than as t-scores or percentiles based on test performance (they used to set the percentiles not by comparing the examinee scores to those of a norm group but by statistically standardizing (curve-fitting) the scores of all those who actually tested). Why CPS doesn’t do this for its AC and SEHS exams is beyond me. It makes more sense. Singapore doesn’t use stand. tests like we do in ages 7-11 (our 2nd through 6th grade).

    In Korea, there are no HS entrance exams or elite HS. Students are randomly assigned to HS. Students cram for the CSAT, which they take at 18 but which they begin preparing for at 16, often taking monthly practice tests (like our SAT the questions and answers are published post-test as with Singapore’s PSLE.) In Korea, they know that you don’t have to start taking standardized test at 8 in order to get ready for one ten years later.

  • 85. CLB  |  June 12, 2014 at 6:09 pm

    “If both show the child should not automatically be promoted, how is that a bad mechanism? ”

    That’s not how CPS does it. Both measures must show the child should be promoted. Any one measure can veto the promotion, usually the standardized test. Even if you have As in math and reading, if the test percentile (about two to three hours of work) is too low, you must go to summer school. You cannot re-take the test, say, a month later. So 179 days work v. less than half a day of work are equally weighted. Again with no reason behind the percentile cut-off. And no appeal mechanism.

    In Singapore, PSLE scores can be appealed, the correct Q&A published, and secondary schools can admit some students at their discretion.

  • 86. 7th  |  June 12, 2014 at 8:20 pm

    I also heard that the MAP scores will be re-normed this summer. If so, how will this affect percentiles? Our principal thinks this could result in higher percentiles. I’m not sure I understand the process, etc correctly. Can anyone ELI5?

  • 87. walker  |  June 12, 2014 at 9:29 pm

    @86 Let’s say 100 kids take the test. Your kid gets the score of 200, 83 kids get less than 200 and 16 get more than 200. So, your kid’s percentile is ~83.5%. To calculate this percentile we need to know scores of all 100 kids.

    Now imagine that there are 100K kids that take the test within a few months and you need to wait for every single result before even starting calculating the norm. So, what can we do about it? Well, let’s use the old 2011 norm. It’s a good statistical approximation but some factors are ignored, such as:

    – test modifications/fixes
    – added/removed schools
    – school/parent adaptation/prep strategies

    Usually % goes down because of #3 (all kids are a bit better prepared and 200 is no longer 83.5% as more kids get >200) but if you add a few “bad” schools to the mix, % might actually go up.

  • 88. CLB  |  June 12, 2014 at 9:57 pm

    @87 NWEA is actually a year or two behind in re-norming the MAP Because of the Common Core roll out, as it was explained to me, they decided to delay the usual three-year cycle. It makes sense because so many states were in the midst of changing standards and curricula. Even the Gates Foundation, which has promoted the CC, has called on states to hold off on using new CC exams for teacher evaluation because of the statistical noise that will be created as curricula are re-structured and the CC exam properties are analyzed in the field. Most states want to avoid the NY state fiasco in which CC-aligned exams were rolled out before CC-aligned instruction was put in place.

    @88 Excellent example with the 100 take the test. Everyone should look at walker’s concise description.

    Look, Singapore pulls this off. For the SEHS exams, CPS has all the students test in relatively short window. Hell, Korea has all the CSAT students test on the same day. We could use intra-CPS scores on a percentile basis.

    With SEHS/AC, what we should be doing is ranking the applicants compared to each other, not a national norm group. After all, my rural Idaho-ite (-ean, what?) is not competing for an AC/SEHS slot.

  • 89. falconergrad  |  June 12, 2014 at 10:20 pm

    I thought this was interesting:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2014/06/06/what-happened-when-george-failed-his-state-standardized-test/

    Got the link in a RYH email.

  • 90. momofmany  |  June 12, 2014 at 10:21 pm

    I’ve also wondered why they can’t just use the raw MAP scores and compare the candidates to each other. Each MAP test is on a 300 point scale, so even within the current 900 entance scale you could just take MAP Math + MAP Reading /2. This would also provide greater stratification of the top scorers which seems lacking.

  • 91. 7th  |  June 13, 2014 at 1:44 am

    Thank you, walker @ 87. You answered the question I was getting at, but did not articulate, which was how the principal came to the conclusion that percentiles would maybe go up. How likely do you think it is that % could actually go up, given the addition of 400,000 cps scores? I guess our principal must think the majority of scores will be “bad.”

  • 92. 7th  |  June 13, 2014 at 1:47 am

    I should add that the principal said “adding 400,000″ scores as if they weren’t counted in the last norm, which made no sense to me. This is probably why I’m confused ;)

  • 93. Chris  |  June 13, 2014 at 9:30 am

    “I should add that the principal said “adding 400,000″ scores as if they weren’t counted in the last norm, which made no sense to me.”

    Last norm was in 2011. MAP wasn’t typical in CPS in the 10-11 school year, was it?

    Yes, the implication is that CPS scores would be worse than the scores of the cohort who took the exam in the last norming period.

  • 94. CLB  |  June 13, 2014 at 11:01 am

    @93 @94 The 2011 norms are not based on the entire population of students who are tested by NWEA but only a sub-group of public schools using NWEA that tested five times from spring 2009 to fall 2010 meeting certain criteria. In the end, there are about 20,000-21,000 students for each grade level used to set the norms. Because CPS does not use fall tests regularly, few CPS schools will be in the norming group (and right now CPS does not use the MAP above 8th grade). The scores are then statistically adjusted to account for difference between the sample of NWEA using schools and the characteristics of schools in the state in general.

    I have no idea why someone would believe that the percentile ranks of CPS students at any one school would increase after the 2014 norming study.

  • 95. MMDEMOM  |  June 13, 2014 at 12:28 pm

    Has OAE said they will use the new norming for SEHS or what we are receiving now based on 2011?

  • 96. CLB  |  June 14, 2014 at 12:27 pm

    @96 If NWEA re-norms the MAP, OEA should use the national percentile ranks that are calculated based on the new norms. While the RIT score means the same thing across tests, the corresponding percentile ranks may change between norming sessions.

  • 97. pantherettie  |  June 16, 2014 at 6:22 am

    What I find really interesting about this whole discussion is that people are generally *not* discussing the specific scores their children earned. It seems like a departure from previous strings where there seemed to a strong theme of “my child was 98% in math and 99% in reading.” Is that because these scores are not typical among MAP/NWEA scorers? Maybe people are just tired and are taking the summer away not to obsess about CPS. Either way, my kid’s AC allowed parents to pick up the MAP report from school. As a parent of a 7th grader, *I* was curious aboutin her scores. My dd has not interest or desire to go to a different SEHS so it really means nothing to our family. (I share that because I know that this is an emotional issue for many folks and I don’t want to diminish that). What I liked about the report was that it showed her scores since 4th grade. I could see either a significant pattern of growth or some slippage from year to year. For example, each fall her scores were lower and grew through out the year. Interestingly, her MAPS percentile ranges (taken with the grain of salt described up thread regarding data analysis) were never equivalent to the upper 90’s percentiles she earned on the ISAT over the years. *Never*.
    So for me (based on my kid alone) it means that the following: 1. CPS got it right when they finally realized that private school kids should not have been able to use Prairie or ISAT scores to compare to CPS kids using MAPS scores. 2. Parents should not be looking for equivalency between a student’s ISAT percentages and MAPS percentages because scores may be significantly different. It will be a shame if CPS send out the message that they should be and starts parents and students on the crazy 99 percentile quest. 3. The 2015 CPSO thread on selective enrollment admissions is going to be crazy long.

    Maybe my kid’s a total anomaly and others have kids who have equivalent scores?

  • 98. Lakeview mom  |  June 16, 2014 at 6:32 am

    When do we receive ISAT results? My third grader came home from the last day of school with only MAP test results.

  • 99. edgewatermom  |  June 16, 2014 at 7:20 am

    @98 In the past, we did not receive ISAT results until the following Fall.

  • 100. Norwood  |  June 16, 2014 at 12:30 pm

    I’m really suspicious of the MAP test. I’m told from teachers and other parents that the test is baselined over a 3 year period for each student, the 1st 4 questions confirm the baseline, and then every time a student gets a series of questions correct, they move to more advanced topics. This jibes with our fairly ridiculous experience.

    When my child was in 2nd grade, he had a challenging reading passage about St. Bernards, which he skipped, and just answered the questions because he read a book on St. Bernards. Very high score. The next year, he reported that he couldn’t understand any of the passages and just guessed through the test. Score falls.

    Even worse in Math. In 2nd grade, he got past Long Division without having a clue what it was, and after his score started bouncing around like a yo-yo, I covered 6th to 8th grade math topics with him so he would have a fighting change with the test. Next year he’ll be in forth grade, and I’m guessing we’ll need at a minimum college geometry, perhaps Topology or Linear Algebra.

    Is this test score designed to describe year-over-year progress instead of comparing all kids at grade level topics? It seems it is. If so, it would wreak havoc with the SESH process unless kids are smart enough to bomb the test in 5th and 6th grade so they aren’t tested at a high school level for the 7th grade test.

    Can anyone comment on these assertions?

  • 101. edgewatermom  |  June 16, 2014 at 1:33 pm

    My understanding is that the RIT score represents how advanced the questions were that the student was able to answer correctly. The improvement is simply measured by seeing the difference in scores from one year to the next. So, doing poorly in 5th and 6th would not necessarily help them in 7th. It would probably just mean that they would have to answer more low-level questions until they got to the more advanced ones.

    It does make sense that if a student scored very highly one year they would be presented with more difficult problems the next year. But I would assume that when they got those wrong they would then be presented with easier questions. However, I am by no means an NWEA expert, so take this all with a grain of salt!

  • 102. CLB  |  June 16, 2014 at 3:38 pm

    Edgewatermom is correct. There is no purpose in “bombing” the test because the percentile ranks for higher RIT scores are higher.

    My understanding is that the test starts off with questions that a student at the 50th percentile has a 50% chance of answering correctly.

    The problem Norwood confronts is inherent in “secure tests” because we never get to see the questions or answers and therefore have no idea what our children read. Given the thousands of items a CAT needs, it would not surprise me that some of the reading passages are poorly written.

  • 103. MAP testing  |  June 16, 2014 at 3:54 pm

    “My understanding is that the test starts off with questions that a student at the 50th percentile has a 50% chance of answering correctly.”

    Do students who have performed differently in prior tests start at the same level? If not, how does the test assess the median student? In comparison to the test taker’s grade level? Something else?

  • 104. Patricia  |  June 16, 2014 at 5:19 pm

    @Norwood
    NWEA, for the purposes of SE use, can be broken into two separate measurements. I used to think along the same lines as you and it did not make sense. I went to a MAPS presentation and asked how growth and the % interrelate. (in fact this was the main question of most parents in the room….we were all confused.) Essentially, the “growth” is measured year over year in spring and is based on the number, i.e. 269 in math one year 272 the next will show 3 points RIT growth. HOWEVER, the percent showing 99% or 88%, etc. is based on a nationally normed scale. For example, one of my kids went down in raw score from 275 to 269 in math, so 6 points down spring to spring. But, he was still in 99% for both since both raw scores are at the top range of the nationally normed sample. So the % used for SE admissions is a nationally normed percentile while the raw score RIT is the individual student growth that is more useful for the teachers. I hope that makes sense or is it as clear as mud ;-)

  • 105. map score surprise  |  June 16, 2014 at 8:01 pm

    I took a peek at my son’s scores and his math is fine, but his reading is an 89%… which I’m totally fine with also. But, my first thought was, oh geez with an 89 he can’t test for SE. I thought you had to have above 90 in both? But then I looked on the OAE site and you only need a 60% now?? Am I crazy, or was that a 90% last year? I don’t have enough time to stay on top of this like many on this site, so most of you probably already knew that. I was just shocked at the drop in requirement. But happy that the 89 will do :)

  • 106. MAP 101 please  |  June 16, 2014 at 9:26 pm

    OK I know nothing about MAP. What does RIT stand for?

  • 107. CLB  |  June 17, 2014 at 1:17 pm

    Rasch unIT

  • 108. Chris  |  June 18, 2014 at 12:01 pm

    “Am I crazy, or was that a 90% last year?”

    It wasn’t 90% last year in order to sit for either the SEHS or AC exam.

  • 109. momofmany  |  June 18, 2014 at 1:07 pm

    The 90%tile in Math & Reading is what is required to test for 5-8th grade RGC & Classical schools. AC and SEHS have their own requirements. The requirements are different with an IEP as well.

  • 110. @109  |  June 18, 2014 at 2:44 pm

    It was 80th percentile for classical @ 70th percentile for ACs & HS was 50th percentile. You are correct it was 90th percentile for RGCs. Now all you need for HS exam is a 24th percentile on NWEA. I wonder what it will be for the elementary programs…

  • 111. Percentiles  |  June 18, 2014 at 3:07 pm

    Ok if I had read a bit then I would know that 60th percentile on nwea for classical & gifted test & for ACs 45th percentile. These are big differences!

  • 112. IBobsessed  |  June 18, 2014 at 4:03 pm

    It used to be you had to have a particular ISAT stanine to test for SEHS. I don’t remember exactly what it was but it was at the average level – a stainine 5 or 6. It was never a requirement to be above the 90%tile.

  • 113. momofmany  |  June 18, 2014 at 5:47 pm

    @percentiles,

    Could you post a link where you’re seeing the new info about testing qualifications? I can’t find it on cps oae.

  • 114. @113  |  June 19, 2014 at 1:21 pm

    http://cpsoae.org/m/news/show_news.jsp?REC_ID=307572&id=0

  • 115. HS HS  |  June 23, 2014 at 11:39 am

    Total deviation from topic but still HS related and you guys know everything
    Do any of the sehs or magnet HS have no cut freshman teams for baseball, football or soccer?

    I can’t find this info anywhere

  • 116. Chicago School GPS  |  June 27, 2014 at 11:15 am

    From CPSOAE:

    Revised Selective Enrollment High Schools Cutoff Scores — Using NWEA MAP scores
    Beginning with the fall 2014 application period for students applying to ninth grade for 2015-2016, the Chicago Public Schools will use NWEA MAP scores to determine student eligibility for the admissions exam and for the selection process for the Selective Enrollment High Schools. Given the transition to the NWEA MAP, the SEHS cutoff scores have been calculated in order to give parents a general indication of the competitiveness of the Selective Enrollment High Schools beginning with the upcoming application/selection process.

    The revised cutoff scores were calculated for students who applied to the Selective Enrollment High Schools in the 2013-2014 school year, for entrance into ninth grade in September 2014. The scores were calculated using these students’ NWEA MAP 7th grade percentiles, instead of the ISAT percentiles in reading and math that were used for the actual selections. It is important to take into consideration that the NWEA MAP was NOT a high stakes assessment at the time that these 7th graders took the test, which could be a factor in the decrease in scores.

    NOTE: The revised scores do not have any impact on the selection status of students who applied for entrance into the ninth grade for September 2014. These scores are designed to serve as a guide ONLY and are NOT the actual cutoff scores for students who will be applying this fall to enter ninth grade in the 2015-2016 school year. Cutoff scores are not generated BEFORE the selection process; they are derived from the applicant pool and are generated BY the student selection process. It is anticipated that the cutoff scores for the selections for 2015-2016 will fall somewhere between the 2014-2015 actual cutoff scores and the revised cutoff scores.

    http://www.cpsoae.org/Selective%20Enrollment%20High%20Schools%20_Revised%20Cutoff%20Scores%20Using%20NWEA%20MAP_2014.pdf

  • 117. 19th ward mom  |  June 27, 2014 at 12:02 pm

    @116 Thanks so much for posting this. This is really helpful. Very surprised that CPS actually gave us these scores because it what everyone has been wondering about. What ISAT vs MAP cut-off scores would like.

    Though I am curious how they factored in the MAP scores for private students.

  • 118. Chris  |  June 30, 2014 at 11:02 am

    “Though I am curious how they factored in the MAP scores for private students.”

    That’s a v. good question. Given the track record, I would assume that they used a methodology open to a lot of nitpicking, and possibly falsifiable.

    But, if it’s close enough, those cutoff scores (if they hold fairly constant in future years) give a great deal more hope all thru the tiers, albeit to a slightly different group of kids.

  • 119. H  |  June 30, 2014 at 11:16 am

    “if it’s close enough, those cutoff scores (if they hold fairly constant in future years) give a great deal more hope all thru the tiers, albeit to a slightly different group of kids.”

    I understand the slightly different group of kids point, but why *necessarily* more hope? If you define hope in some reasonable way, then the number of kids with hope depends on the distribution around cutoff scores, which could be thicker or not. E.g., if you changed the scoring from the prior system by subtracting 25 points from everyone’s score, nothing of consequence would have changed.

  • 120. Chris  |  June 30, 2014 at 11:29 am

    “why *necessarily* more hope?”

    If getting a 97/97/97 (or 95/95/95, or whatever) across the two map test + 8th grade test is now good enough to get in to Payton, perception (which is the basis for hope) is that that is more achievable than prior 99/99/98 ‘requirement’. *Even if* getting the 97s or 95s is harder than getting the 99s on the old tests.

    Also, one B does not exclude a T4 kid from *any* school–sure, back into the needing 99/99/99, but that is clear basis for hope, at least before getting 7th grade scores.

  • 121. lawmom  |  July 2, 2014 at 10:04 pm

    Sorry, but a “B” is an automatic 25 point reduction, so if your child is in Tier 4, you won’t make the cut offs for Whitney, Payton or Northside even if the two test scores are 100%. That is, unless the point deduction for grades are changes by CPS.

  • 122. Joan X  |  July 5, 2014 at 4:53 am

    ” those cutoff scores (if they hold fairly constant in future years) give a great deal more hope all thru the tiers”

    Assuming the same number of seats, the cutoff scores do not offer any additional hope on their own. It just means the national pool for norming is different than the old test and the Chicago kids do slightly worse in the new norm group. It’s not like someone who got a 98 on the old test but needed a 99 will get in under the new test. It just means they will probably get a 97 on the new test but will have needed a 98 on the new cutoffs.

  • 123. Joan X  |  July 5, 2014 at 5:05 am

    “Sorry, but a “B” is an automatic 25 point reduction, so if your child is in Tier 4, you won’t make the cut offs for Whitney, Payton or Northside even if the two test scores are 100%. ”

    I believe Chris was referring to the estimated new minimums under Map. All of the Tier 4 minimums are under 875 so in theory, a Tier 4 could get one B and still get in any SEHS (assuming top test scores). The issue is the overall test scores are coming down as well (looking at estimate minimums) so getting a B will still effectively knock you out of the Top SEHS (NS & Payton). But if some kid does get a 99th percentile now, a single B would not knock them out. Side note, the max test score is 99th percentile or 300 points (not 100% test score).

    The are many problems with the estimated minimums (and CPS notes it on the sheet). The MAP test did not mean much before, but now that it is used for SEHS, more kids will start taking test prep and focus more. Our daughter is taking an Algebra course this summer and 6 weeks of MAP test prep for the September testing. The harder questions (assuming a kid does well enough on the early questions to get to them) are worth more points, so we are hoping the Algebra will give a boost. For once, she will know more going in to a school year than when leaving one.

  • 124. 7th  |  July 16, 2014 at 12:20 am

    “It’s not like someone who got a 98 on the old test but needed a 99 will get in under the new test. It just means they will probably get a 97 on the new test but will have needed a 98 on the new cutoffs”

    I don’t know. This is, of course, anecdotal, but my kid scores better on MAPS than ISATs. 99/96 vs 94/91. So there’s a lot of hope in our house :)

  • 125. luxy  |  July 16, 2014 at 6:42 am

    ” This is, of course, anecdotal, but my kid scores better on MAPS”

    Sure some will do better, some worse. But on average more scored worse (percentile ranking wise). That is why the estimated cutoff scores went down. So we do know.

    If you’re Tier 4 you may need to get that 94 score up. But if you live in 1-3 then you are in good shape.

  • 126. HSHSHS  |  August 5, 2014 at 9:50 am

    Now that MAP is over for most, does anyone know the areas assessed on SEHS entrance exam? Is it reading, math and language?

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  • 128. LSMof3  |  September 24, 2014 at 10:44 am

    Help!! My child doesn’t want to retake the MAP. I don’t like the thought of forcing my child to retake it. We are mainly interested in Lane. We are tier 4, grades are A’s, reading 94%, and math is 84%. Do you think my child has any chance of getting into Lane? Do I need to have my child retest? I am so frustrated by this process

  • 129. west rogers park mom  |  September 24, 2014 at 10:53 am

    @128– Yes. We are in a similar spot. My kid scored 91/93 and after plugging it into the rubric it appeared that those scores were not good enough.

    She took the admissions test last year for IG programs so I also have an idea on how she will do on that. She scored very well, but with her MAP scores, her admission test would have to rise at least 10 points, which is not likely.

    So my kid is retaking maps. There is really nothing to lose at this point.

  • 130. Chris  |  September 24, 2014 at 11:46 am

    LSM–

    Looking at the rubric and the ‘revised’ cutoff scores, with those numbers, would have needed a 89th %-ile on the 8th grade test to get into Lane. Obviously the number fluctuates year to year, even ignoring the inherent oddness of the “revised” cutoff, so it might be higher/lower than 89th, but seems possible w/o needing a 99, which is pretty ok.

    Gotta remember, on the re-take, scores might be lower, and then you’re stuck with them. Being in a situation where hitting a obtainable (based on prior scores) score on the 8th grade test gets you in isn’t a bad place to be.

    Does anyone know which MAP raw-to-scaled conversion they use for the re-take?

    Looking at the RIT to %ile charts, there are a lot of points where achieving the same RIT score (NOT a sure thing. *NOT*) in both Spring 7th and Fall 8th would lead to a *higher* %ile score in the Fall 8th conversion. For LSM’s kid, the reading (RIT = 238) would bump from 94 to 95, and the math (RIT = 246) goes from 84 to 85 or 86.

  • 131. LMSof3  |  September 24, 2014 at 11:52 am

    @129 – What rubric did you use?

  • 132. LMSof3  |  September 24, 2014 at 12:32 pm

    @130 – This is my dilemma about the retake being the final score. I spoke to a friend who is a cps assistant principal. This person advised me not to have my child retake the MAP. My friend said that the test will start where my child left off and will be tough from the get go – – making it harder to score higher. The pressure and difficulty, along with it being compared to 8th grade as opposed to 7th grade, might not get a higher score. I am so uncomfortable with this gamble.

  • 133. cpsobsessed  |  September 24, 2014 at 12:39 pm

    I am in a no-lose situation as my son got a 77% on math MAP, so he is re-taking it tomorrow (for AC admission.) I seriously doubt he can jump to the level need, even though he did summer math tutoring, but I figure it’s worth him seeing what the best he can do is so there are no regrets later. Plus I kind of want to see if I got my money’s worth from the tutoring.

    It’s definitely a risk if you are in the 93%-ish zone. So hard to know. I have been told that Math MAP scores as a city were low last year, so it *may* be possilbe that a 93% math might be good enough for entry if the whole curve is somehow lower this year.

  • 134. northside mom  |  September 24, 2014 at 12:51 pm

    LSM, actually when I use this rubric on Selective Prep’s website, with those grades and percentiles it looks like he would only need a 78% to reach Tier 4 mean score.

    http://selectiveprep.com/8th-grade-program/score-map-test.html

    We’re in a worse position. Tier 4, straight A’s but 81 and 84% on MAP. With the previous cutoff chart there would have been no hope for Lane but with the revised MAP cutoffs it looks like he would need an 84% on the SE exam to reach Tier 4 mean (and it was 81% for Tier 4 min).

    The revised cutoff scores for all tiers can be found here.

    http://cpsoae.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=72696&type=d&termREC_ID=&pREC_ID=123085

    Of course these scored reflect MAP results when it wasn’t a high stakes test so they’ll likely be somewhat higher.

    (If anyone finds my calculations are off, please let me know. I don’t want my son to have false hope if there’s truly no chance).

  • 135. northside mom  |  September 24, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    Here is a link to the rubric on the CPS website.

    http://cpsoae.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=72696&type=d&termREC_ID=&pREC_ID=123089

    My calculations come out the same on this. Which appears to give my son a shot at Lane with 81 and 84% MAP scores (Tier 4).
    According to the rubric he gets 127pts for MAP reading, 123 pts for MAP Math, 300 points for 4 A’s. Given this, he needs a 81% on the SE exam to reach the tier 4 min and 84% to reach tier 4 mean.

    Again, please let me know if something is off here. I won’t put him through the torture of Selective Prep if there’s no chance at all.

  • 136. Chris  |  September 24, 2014 at 2:00 pm

    northside mom: “please let me know if something is off here”

    That’s how I read it, too.

    I do have *substantial* concern that those “revised” cutoffs are not a realistic representation of what the actual cutoff will be. I fully expect them to be higher, but if they are more than about 10 points higher, it’s going to be a total PR nightmare.

  • 137. LSMof3  |  September 24, 2014 at 2:52 pm

    It seemed like early on people were posting about 90 plus scores with MAP tests. I felt really bad that my child had gotten an 84% on math (and was surprised at the score) and just quiet about it. However now I am wondering if a lot of students scored lower than their ISAT scores. I wish we as parents had a general sense of score averages. My child is scheduled to retake math and try to overcome his 84 (and not touch the 94 for reading). He strongly does not want to retake it. I am REALLY concerned he could lower his 84 and starting to think I should not have him retest.

  • 138. northside mom  |  September 24, 2014 at 3:05 pm

    I know at least one of my son’s friends who used to score in the 90s on the ISATs scored in the 70s on the MAP test. I also wish there was a way to compare scores from year to year by grade level. How were the 7th grade average scores affected when the test became high stakes this year. That data must exist somewhere, at least within individual schools.

  • 139. LSMof3  |  September 24, 2014 at 3:13 pm

    I wish I didn’t have to put this kind of pressure on my kids. I would have wilted as a child under this kind of pressure. It feels so hypocritical.

  • 140. cpsobsessed  |  September 24, 2014 at 3:33 pm

    @LSMof3: I am really trying to downplay any pressure. I’ve told my son that very very high scores are required for an Academic Center and that while he has good scores, it’s likely not high enough for these schools.

    I also feel so much better about the range of high school options than I did a few years ago, so I think I can even pull that off with little pressure.

    The hard part for me is getting him to think ahead of the implications. Of course he doesn’t want to study for the MAP test now, of course he won’t want to realllly buckle down on homework in 7th grade and perhaps even sit out of the school musical to ensure good grades. He’s short sighted. I just worry that when other kids are heading off for SEHS he’ll be like “why didn’t I try harder?” Lesson learned, I suppose, but one that affects your 4 year high school experience.

    So now I see what you mean by putting pressure on them. It’s not nec we who are putting it on them, just the nature of the CPS system.

  • 141. IB Obsessed  |  September 24, 2014 at 3:41 pm

    LSMof3, Just to balance out the other posts here: My 8th grader scored the lowest ever has in math on the MAP last Spring. We are not re-testing, although we had a good case for adverse circumstances. My kid is not taking the SE test and we are not applying to SEHSs. Yes, I have an intellectually gifted child and we are not doing SEHS. I do not want my kid to hate school and testing, and I choose not to have the pressure. A friend tells me that college profs have a name for kids who are burn out already as freshman, “crispies”.
    (Not saying all SEHS kids are crispies)

  • 142. west rogers park mom  |  September 24, 2014 at 4:36 pm

    @IB Obsessed: Good for you ! Where are you applying? We went through the motions for my oldest a few years ago- though it would have been a true anomaly if her SEHS test score was high enough for admission, she technically still had a chance.

    She ended with a variety of options and was accepted everywhere but SEHS.

  • 143. west rogers park mom  |  September 24, 2014 at 4:36 pm

    Just to clarify my kid is testing for AC’s: Here is the scoring rubric:

    http://www.cpsoae.org/Scoring%20Rubric%20–%20Academic%20Centers%20and%20International%20Gifted%20Program%20–%202015-2016.pdf

    Her current numbers are 10 points below the minimum Tier 4 Lane admission, which is ‘only’ a 4 point increase in the test. My guess is that Lane’s scores will increase again this year.

  • 144. IB Obsessed  |  September 24, 2014 at 4:47 pm

    Applying to a couple of IB diploma programs (no surprise), our neighborhood HS, Senn, Von Steuben, Disney II, Lakeview, Lincoln Park HH…might move to a close in suburb. Other suggestions welcome.

  • 145. cpsobsessed  |  September 24, 2014 at 4:50 pm

    I’ll start an AC and HS thread as well so we can continue detailed discussion…

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 146. Stressed mom  |  September 25, 2014 at 3:56 pm

    At least you guys have the option to re-take the MAP. The non-CPS applicants get one shot, and they have to take it somewhere other than their home school. We haven’t heard anything about re-takes if we have a bad anomaly test.

  • 147. IB Obsessed  |  September 25, 2014 at 4:43 pm

    @156 You don’t get a re-take just for a low score. For the 1st time ever, CPS allows a student to apply to retake if you can show adverse circumstances at the time of the test. The request must be signed off by the school counselor who presumably has some knowledge the adverse circumstances alleged. I haven’t even heard of any CPS 8th grader actually re-taking it.

  • 148. Stressed mom  |  September 25, 2014 at 4:51 pm

    @147 That’s good to know. It sounded from the previous comments that people were saying they just didn’t like their child’s score and wanted a re-take. This whole thing is so stressful. I hope it works out for everyone.

  • 149. cpsobsessed  |  September 25, 2014 at 5:30 pm

    I think one could certainly request a retake fairly easily, without proving true adverse conditions.

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 150. Chris  |  September 25, 2014 at 6:57 pm

    “You don’t get a re-take just for a low score”

    Wait–didn’t the info about the switch to MAP-for-admissions back in the spring say that the CPS 7th graders could choose to retake in the fall, bc they didn’t know that the spring testing mattered? Did that change? Or am I just imagining the first instance?

  • 151. momofmany  |  September 25, 2014 at 7:00 pm

    We’ve known that MAP would count since early last fall.

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  • 153. dav  |  September 28, 2014 at 12:21 am

    does anyone know how cps is going to handle tiers for students not in chicago but applying for SEHS?

  • 154. momofmany  |  September 28, 2014 at 6:26 am

    ^^^
    They will assign a tier based on the census tract, just like in Chicago.

  • 155. pantherettie  |  September 28, 2014 at 7:47 am

    @153 – students who do not live in Chicago and are applying to an SEHS are *not* assigned to a tier track. They do not “benefit” from such designation because the city has absolutely no resources for and no interest in ranking another city’s population in terms of education, home ownership, household income ect. Non-Chicago residents are offered acceptance based solely on rank scores – meaning the highest scores get in and are not “weighted” according to a tier assignment. Definately ask questions on this forum about tier rank and people can explain further. Just don’t make the mistake that there are tier rankings for non-Chicago residents.

  • 156. cpsobsessed  |  September 28, 2014 at 9:35 am

    I was given this info from OAE in Aug 2013 regarding Tiers for out of town kids:

    “Students who reside outside of the city of Chicago are assigned to a tier based on the median family income of the census tract in which they live.”

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  • 158. vb  |  September 29, 2014 at 11:36 am

    My 8th grader is re-taking the MAP test. I don’t recall that we had to show any “adverse circumstances” on the re-take form. We just didn’t like his score and wanted a re-take. He should be taking the MAP test today (reading) and tomorrow (math).

  • 159. west rogers park mom  |  September 29, 2014 at 11:46 am

    My 6th grader retook the MAP test last week with mixed results. We don’t have the official scores but she wrote down the number at the end and from looking at charts we have a pretty decent idea on what they will be. She went up a lot in reading and down a little in math. Overall, she may have gained a few points.

    We didn’t need to show any ‘adverse circumstances’ for the retake. All we had to do is ask for the form.

  • 160. IB Obsessed  |  September 29, 2014 at 12:39 pm

    @158 and @159. Interesting! And to think I was worried the circumstances I was going to cite were not adverse enough to merit a re-take. I talked to OAE over the summer and the person I talked to definitely said you can take it if you had adverse circumstances only. And that the school counselor had to sign off. And the request must be submitted by 9/1/14. CPS consistency shining through again! That really is NOT fair to non-CPS students, but if you treat everyone unfairly at some point (non-CPSers formerly were allowed to give the best score of retakes) maybe it evens out? Ha

  • 161. IB Obsessed  |  September 29, 2014 at 12:40 pm

    Always get a name when you get info from CPS over the phone……..

  • 162. vb  |  September 29, 2014 at 2:58 pm

    CPS lies. There is a previous post where someone was told that the fall re-take MAP test would start where the student left off in the spring. That shows a profound misunderstanding of adaptive testing (tests that change the current question in response to previous answers). You can’t jump to the middle or end of an adaptive test, You have to start at the beginning (at grade level material) and proceed.

    The school counselor had to sign off mostly to emphasize the rule that the fall score would *replace* the spring score. They are not going to take the highest of the spring/fall scores.

    We’re taking a risk by having my 8th grader re-take the MAP with scores of 86% (reading) and 92% (math). From what I gathered those are “good” scores, but not “top” scores. Getting into Lane requires “top” scores for a Tier 4 family. Regardless where the cutoff will be using MAP scores, getting into Lane is not going to get less competitive.

  • 163. Chris  |  September 29, 2014 at 2:58 pm

    “I was given this info from OAE in Aug 2013 regarding Tiers for out of town kids:

    “Students who reside outside of the city of Chicago are assigned to a tier based on the median family income of the census tract in which they live.””

    Does that apply to HS, too? B/C of a long discussion here in the spring (the folks moving from NY, who got 74* offers), we know that it applies to ES.

    *Totally made up number.

  • 164. LSMof3  |  September 29, 2014 at 3:29 pm

    @162, it is my understanding that the MAP test starts at the child’s last RIT score. If the RIT score is on the higher end, I have heard that it can be harder to score higher. Children who start with a lower RIT score tend to show a greater growth/score higher. Also your re-test score is compared with the current grade/time of year.

  • 165. Chris  |  September 29, 2014 at 3:41 pm

    “it is my understanding that the MAP test starts at the child’s last RIT score. ”

    OK, but that’s not the same as “start where the student left off in the spring”. They seem to be non-contradictory to me.

  • 166. vb  |  September 29, 2014 at 4:14 pm

    This is what I found…

    “The RIT scale in consistent, just like a ruler. One inch is always one inch, and one RIT is always one RIT. A student who grows from 165 to 170 shows the same amount of instructional growth as a student who goes from a 280 to 285 — 5 RIT points of growth.”

    “A student’s RIT score indicates the level at which the student was answering questions correctly 50% of the time.”

    I think this agrees with you, LSM. Since the tests is designed to measure growth, the MAP questions start off based on the child’s last RIT score.

    But that’s not the same as saying that the test starts where the student left off. If a student is scoring well at the 250 RIT level during the test, the adaptive logic might start giving questions at the 260 RIT or higher, to see if the student can answer those correctly consistently. The next test is going to start at the 250 RIT, not the 260 RIT level.

  • 167. HS mom  |  September 30, 2014 at 12:26 pm

    “Students who reside outside of the city of Chicago are assigned to a tier based on the median family income of the census tract in which they live.”

    Wow – If this is true for SEHS……anyone see issues? There are many surrounding suburbs that do not have the Northshore demographics. Seems like this policy would encourage and even give suburban applicants an edge.

  • 168. cpsobsessed  |  September 30, 2014 at 12:30 pm

    @167: I have to think that given the very low socio economic level of the city, almost anyone outside the city is going to be a Tier 4, most likely.

  • 169. Chris  |  September 30, 2014 at 12:44 pm

    “almost anyone outside the city is going to be a Tier 4″

    It totally depends on how they calculate it. There are T4 census tracts with median family income under $50k, and T 2 over $60k.

    So, it’s not simple, and anything that gives suburbanites a “Tier” other than 4 (and I would say deeming them T4, too) is substantially biased in favor of the suburbanites. It’s, frankly, scandalous to me.

  • 170. HS mom  |  September 30, 2014 at 12:54 pm

    @168 Oh my gosh……I see kids come from Summit, Oak Lawn, Evergreen Park, Dolton and as far away as Lansing

  • 171. IbObsessed  |  September 30, 2014 at 1:26 pm

    One of us should go to a BOE meeting and sign up to speak to them about ending this nonsense of admitting non Chicago residents. This policy doesn’t benefit anyone but people who don’t vote in Chicago. And we do not need it for economic development. No place else does this! A suburb I called will not even allow my student to take the Explore test there until we are residents.

    NYC schools will not even give you an appt. at a borough office about enrolling your child as a transfer until you can show a lease/mortgage contract AND utility bills showing city residency.

    You are not entitled even to a Chicago parking sticker until you live here, but you can get into a Chicago school.

  • 172. HS mom  |  September 30, 2014 at 1:53 pm

    171 – Yes agreed….. even if a suburb is considered tier 4 (love to see a tier map for the burbs)……why should Chicago tier 4 kids have to compete against suburban tier 4 kids for Chicago Public Schools. If you’re moving to the city then move and then apply to Chicago schools.

  • 173. cpsobsessed  |  September 30, 2014 at 1:56 pm

    So people would be expected to go to their neighborhood or private school for that first year?
    As a note they DO need to live in the city to enroll in the school.

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 174. HS mom  |  September 30, 2014 at 2:08 pm

    @173 – Yes technically they need to live in the city or pay tuition. And yes, if people’s move does not coordinate with selective or other application deadlines then they should have to wait until they are eligible to apply.

    Some people only plan to move if they get into the school or not move at all and use a Chicago address. Even one of the kids in the 5 that were profiled by BEZ was applying to SE and qualified because he could go and live in the city. Kind of a fine line. My feeling is with the demand for SEHS and shortage of seats for kids who genuinely live in the city, why bend on these types of requirements.

  • 175. IB Obsessed  |  September 30, 2014 at 2:31 pm

    But they can be accepted into an SE school without living here and we pay for testing. Yes, people would be expected to go to their neighborhood school or a charter the 1st year or part of one. Or coordinate moving here in time to apply the normal way.
    I know it seems a bit harsh, but it is not the job of CPS to accomodate moving plans for jobs or aspirations of suburban parents of SE for their kids. Let them initiate something similar in their own districts if that’s what they want or organize to improve their schools if they don’t think they are good enough.

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