7 Hour Day. So it is written. So it shall be.

April 10, 2012 at 12:07 pm 422 comments

Press release from CPS.  I’m not sure how to react.   I am happy it will be less than 7.5 hours which seemed insane.

I’m still not getting how he gets off calling it a “Fuller Day” when we’re barely scraping by on the funding.  I know we all want it to be a nice, well rounded, full day (and I feel that even Rahm really wants this) but the money just ain’t there.  Not his fault, but it’s not.  We are being asked to all step up to the plate to use this time wisely, creatively, and effectively so I guess we’ve got to give it the best we’ve all got.  We can celebrate not having the pathetically shortest day in the country.  We can celebrate what hopefully is recess for more kids and a leisurely lunch.  Let’s hope we can celebrate an enjoyable day for more kids in the city and especially better results for the most disadvantaged kids in the city.  I really hope this works in their favor.  And I really hope my son learns all he needs to know about in math next year without my having to argue with him every night at home.

MAYOR EMANUEL, CPS ANNOUNCE 7-HOUR DAY FOR ELEMENTARY STUDENTS

After Input from Parents and Teachers, Elementary Schools Adopt 7 Hour Day Next Year

CHICAGO – Mayor Rahm Emanuel and Chicago Public Schools (CPS) CEO Jean-Claude Brizard today announced that elementary schools will adopt a 7-hour day next year and high schools will adopt a 7 1/2-hour day as CPS moves from the shortest school day and year of any major city to a calendar aligned with national averages. This announcement comes after meetings and discussions with parents who expressed concerns and wanted to be more involved in setting the length of the day.

“Knowledge is the key to the future in today’s world – you earn what you learn. By having the shortest school day and shortest school year of any major city, we shortchanged Chicago’s children,” said Mayor Rahm Emanuel. “By adopting a longer day and a longer year, we are working to shape the future of our children for the better and give them an education that matches up with their potential.”

Beginning next fall, all elementary students will move to a 7 hour school day, and high school students will have a 7 1/2-hour school day, with a 75 minute early release one day a week. Earlier this year, CPS presented the SY 2012-2013 calendar, which includes 10 additional days of instruction, moving CPS from the shortest school year in the country to a 180 day year that is on par with the national average. With the Full School Day, a student entering kindergarten next year will receive nearly 2.5 additional years of instructional time by the time they graduate high school. Along with implementation of the Common Core State Standards, a more rigorous curriculum that will better prepare students for college and career, and the new instructional framework, which will fundamentally change and improve the quality of teaching, the additional instructional time provided by the Full Day and year will give both teachers and students a valuable tool to improve teaching and learning in every school across the district.

The announcement was made at Disney II Magnet Elementary School, one of the schools that implemented the Full School Day last fall. Since launching the Full Day last September, students at Disney II have received an additional 185 hours of instructional time, with that time primarily focused on reading, math and science.

“We’re grateful for the example our Pioneer and Charter Schools have set, and their experiences, along with the direct input from parents across the city, have helped us shape a better, fuller school day,” said CEO Jean Claude Brizard. “The changes to the Full Day reflect hours spent listening to parents and taking action based on their input, and demonstrate our willingness to work as true partners with parents to make decisions that will boost student achievement across the district.”

Elementary Full School Day:

  • Students will receive 52 additional minutes of instructional time each day.
  • Students will receive 6 hours of instruction and 45 minutes for recess and lunch.
  • Students will be in school for 7 hours each day, an increase of 75 minutes.
  • Teachers will be in school for 7 hours and 40 minutes, an increase of 85 minutes.

High School Full School Day:

  • Students will receive 46 additional instructional minutes four days a week.
  • Students will receive 6 hours and 8 minutes of instructional time four days a week.
  • Students will be in school for 7 1/2 hours a day, an increase of 36 minutes four days a week.
  • One day per week the day will end 75 minutes early.
  • Teachers will be in school for 7 hours and 40 minutes, an increase of 39 minutes.

The Full School Day will provide significant benefits to all students across the district, including:

  • Elementary students will receive an additional 207 hours of instruction each year, and high school students will receive an additional 116 hours of instruction. Principals will no longer have to choose between reading, math or science because of limited time in the day.
  • Additional time will create opportunity to add more intervention to ensure students who are falling behind in math and reading can get up to speed with their peers.
  • Elementary students will have time for lunch and recess every day to relax, re-boot and return to the classroom ready to learn.

The Full School Day was structured with an eye toward providing teachers with adequate professional development and prep time to support their practice. Benefits of the Full Day include:

  • Elementary teachers will have almost two additional hours of prep time each week.
  • Elementary teachers will have self-directed prep time in the mornings, as well as additional prep time throughout the day to meet with parents informally, prepare for their lessons and supervise students who arrive at school early.
  • Both elementary and high school teachers will receive an average of 75 minutes for professional development each week.
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Longer Day (7.5 hour) protest continue with a parent press conference today Nightline Show tonight on NYC Gifted/Talented Program + Article

422 Comments Add your own

  • 1. SouthSideDad  |  April 10, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    I applaud Rahm for trying to get CPS out of the shortest school day and year of any major city but wonder where they will get the money? It’s not a complicated situation: they are running huge deficits with no contingency plans. And they are racking up more debt. Who will go bankrupt first the US Postal Service or CPS? What realistic plans are there to save either of them?

  • 2. kiki h.  |  April 10, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    If he could just inch it down a tiny bit more to 6.75, I’d be really happy. Of course, for the kids at pioneer schools, 7 hours will be a shorter day.

  • 3. candycane  |  April 10, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Why are you concerned about the USPS and lumping that with CPS? I personally am thrilled to death that Rahm is addressing CPS and making positive changes. He’ll find the money, don’t worry. He’s got a plan and he’ll make it work by hook or by crook. I’ll do anything to give my child a better education–maybe more parents can help–I know I’m running for my LSC and I would be willing to help in the classroom or even doing “behind the scenes” help on a saturday.

  • 4. Christine  |  April 10, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    I just don’t want “by hook or by crook” to end up with CPS bankrupt and all of our schools ending up as privatized charters. Nothing against charters as a choice, I just don’t want them to be the only game in town.

  • 5. lt246  |  April 10, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    I don’t want “by hook or by crook either.” I want well-resourced schools for all kids, which this plan does zero to address, and which we don’t currently have. I’d much rather a 6.5 hour day with art, music, recess and teachers who are enthusiastic and respected, than a under-resourced 7-hour day with cranky kids and angry teachers. I think this is a weak compromise based on really effective parent backlash. Why stop now?

  • 6. Mom  |  April 10, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    Ha! Karen Lewis is claiming the 7 hour fuller day as a CTU win.

    From Tribune:
    Even before Emanuel’s press conference at an area elementary school concluded Tuesday, Chicago Teachers Union President Karen Lewis sent out a statement of her own: “It’s about time the mayor listened to parents about the length of the school day. Now give our students the neighborhood schools, resources and support they deserve. Teachers have said this from the beginning: This is about quality not quantity.”

  • 7. junior  |  April 10, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    Of course, everyone gets to claim this as a win. That, my friends, is a master politician at work.

  • 8. 60660  |  April 10, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    @6 Mom – that is a really strange reading of Karen Lewis’ comment…
    I’m relieved they stepped back from the 7.5 hours

  • 9. HS Mom  |  April 10, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    Perfect. 6.5 was not long enough for us. My HS teen is motivated having a little bit longer day looking forward to getting out early at the end of the week. Combined with block scheduling, the day should become more beneficial.

  • 10. AEpp  |  April 10, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    @Mom – I agree that’s an odd way of looking at Karen Lewis’ comment. She is praising us parents for taking up the call to action on behalf of our kids and encouraging CPS (and us) to not let this be the end of the discussion. This is still only the beginning and we need to continue to push for answers regarding how we’ll be supporting schools, how we’ll be funding the resources needed to support this day and just exactly HOW (and not just in terms of minutes) will this day be spent. I am encouraged by this, still wish it was 6.5 hours, but I do feel like this is the start and I’m proud of the work so many have put into making the voices of so many heard!

  • 11. kate  |  April 10, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    wow, what a nice feeling to have this Decided and Communicated so early in the game. I’m impressed, thought that we would only get 45 minutes more (lunch & recess)…. we actually get more ins. time! Well Done folks (RE, CTU, parents & CPS)!

  • 12. Mich  |  April 10, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    I think 7 works better at elementary levels. It allows for things outside of class. I was angry at the thought I’d have to take her out of class for 1/2 hour every week for therapy – the last slot is 4:30 which our school would have ended at if they kept the current start time. Now even if they keep that start time (and secretly I hope they’ll move it to 8:30 instead) she’ll be out in time.

    45 minutes for lunch/recess will work well for kids who need to get out that pent up energy. I’m ok with recess being split up from lunch just NOT placed at the end of the day, that is counterproductive and does nothing to help the students who need that time to get the energy out so they can refocus.

  • 13. Jul23  |  April 10, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    I am elated that we chose to apply to private school as a back up. Our son will be leaving a gifted program to attend Parker and our youngest will remain at Blaine for prek. We hope to move her to Parker next year, assuming she gets accepted.

    I am not happy about the 7 hour day. There is no money to fund this properly, no plans, no resources and the children will ultimately suffer. Parker for example, starts at 8:30 and ends at 3:10. Every day the students have gym and another special (art, Library, Computers, Drama, Language). They have an hour lunch/recess. If there is no money to support adding an enrichment or additional resources to assist those who need help, what is the point in a longer day? Rahm mentioned how this longer day will allow students to receive additional support but he has zero funding to support his statements. Teachers will burn out creating a huge turnover rate and we will be left with an education system full of privatized charters.

  • 14. Gunnery Sgt. Hartman  |  April 10, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    #13 I’m elated too. Enjoy the $30k plus a year for Parker for two kids. You’re paying for 15 minutes more of recess and lunch than CPS students get.

    By the way, I think the comments on the budget issues are more on target than the difference in time, be it 7 hours for the elementary school kids or 7.5. But the present day was simply too short.

  • 15. mom2  |  April 10, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    I think this plan sounds good and I am really glad that everyone feels like they won. Rahm is a genius on this one. Let’s see what they do about funding and working with CTU on the rest of this.

  • 16. Jul23  |  April 10, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    #14 no, we will be paying for a wonderful education at a school where 100% of the students go on to attend 4 years of college. We will be paying for smaller class sizes, daily enrichment and wonderful after school programs. We will be paying for stability.

    It’s not about a longer lunch/recess. It’s about having a plan, budget and funding to support the changes. Parker has gym everyday in addition to a one hour lunch/recess. They also have an enrichment class everyday. Teachers have the resources necessary to teach vs wasting time on behavior issues. What happens to all of those schools that don’t have outside areas for recess? No parents to volunteer or provide funding? Exactly. This is setting up those schools to fail. The only schools that will have a chance are those with heavy parent involvement, funding and volunteers. I care about the system as a whole. I doubt teachers that work extremely hard, arriving hours early and staying hours late are happy about a longer day.

  • 17. Mom  |  April 10, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    @16Jul23 – No CPS school has/will every meet that standard. Most CPS kids don’t have educated/wealthy parents who can chuck a quarter of a million dollars toward elementary school.

    Why have you even cared to be a part of this blog? And now the fuller school day pushed you over the edge? I’m perplexed.

  • 18. Vlajos  |  April 10, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    Rahm probably never truly thought a 7.5 hour day was going to happen. You don’t start bargaining at the goal.

  • 19. Chris  |  April 10, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • 20. Chris  |  April 10, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    “What happens to all of those schools that don’t have outside areas for recess? No parents to volunteer or provide funding? Exactly. This is setting up those schools to fail.”

    It’s setting failing schools up to fail more? I have no idea what the point there is.

    “The only schools that will have a chance are those with heavy parent involvement, funding and volunteers.”

    You mean, the school that have parents like Parker parents?

  • 21. Mich  |  April 10, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    @16Jul23 – you’re right, they don’t have to deal with those issues because they can simply refuse children who come from backgrounds or have disabilities that will cause those disruptions.
    I know a family that’s child was struggling in pre-K so they removed him and told them not to bother reapplying. This child was later diagnosed with dsylexia and ADD. So sure, he was causing a few disruptions. He’s now a very mature young man with high energy but no “behavior issues”. But Parker never took the chance. If you kick out any child who might or might not some day be a behavior issue, then you have “solved” a problem by pretending it doesn’t exist.

  • 22. Jul23  |  April 10, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    #17 I have a child at Blaine and my eldest is in a CPS gifted program. Does that answer your question as to why I have been participating in conversations on this forum or do I need your permission? My husband and I have had many sleepless nights while going through the application process for my eldest. I feel 7 hours is too long for a 5 yr old.

    Chris- yes, it’s setting up schools for failure. The reason for the longer day is to provide more instructional time in hope of filling the gap. Rahm mentioned how students who need additional support will now be able to receive it due to the longer day. He also said students will have recess which will provide time to blow off steam. What dont you understand? Do you really think these students will get the additional help they need with this longer day? Where will students have recess at schools that have zero outdoor space?

    Your snarky comments re: Parker are not contributing anything positive. If you can’t be civil, I suggest you don’t say anything.

  • 23. sandersrockets  |  April 10, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    UNFUNDED!! He wants to extend the day and NOT bring in more staff, NOT increase student funding, NOT decrease class size (my sons’ numbers are 35 & 32), NOT pay teachers for the additional 85 mins per day, NO air conditioners, NOT provide more instructional material…. Shall I go on? Whether it’s 7 hours or 7.5 hours, it doesn’t make sense!! I do not trust the funding will be found… Certainly not with the $700 MILLION deficit That has been reported my numerous sources. It’s not possible.
    Rahm’s plan to “fix” our city’s budget on the backs of our children doesn’t fly with me!!

  • 24. junior  |  April 10, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    @23 said
    “Shall I go on?”

    You didn’t give us a chance to answer.

  • 25. sandersrockets  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    @24 trying to make a point. I’m certain there are other things that the board will not be providing other CPS children. How about a safe haven for the recess they are now requiring? I didn’t intend to be rude, just disgusted by the Mayor’s tyranny, especially when it hits so close to home.

  • 26. Chris  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    “What dont you understand?”

    The schools are already failing. Are you suggesting that they are being set up to fail *worse*?

    Your defensiveness about Parker is telling.

  • 27. Chris  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    “NOT pay teachers for the additional 85 mins per day”

    1. They are ALREADY paid for 45 of those minutes. The teachers opt to take their 45 minutes at the end of the day, and many (most?) use it to leave the school early.

    2. It’s “only” 75 minutes, so we’re talking about 30 minutes of “not paid for” added time.

    3. “the $700 MILLION deficit That has been reported my numerous sources”

    just like the 7.5 hour day that was written in stone. Underpromise, overdeliver. Classic ploys that too many are taking totally at face value–remember, a contract is being negotiated–of course CPS is pleading desperate poverty. That’s union contract negotiation 101.

  • 28. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    It’s not over…It’s only begun. An UNFUNDED 7hr day is UNACCEPTABLE! The budge was to be out for the principals on the 12th and now they wont be available until May!!!! We have seen progress, now the fight begins and when it settles, all schools will go 6.5 hrs! Don’t get distracted with this progress/keep up the fight for your kids. IL avg is 6.5~and we want it fully funded with ancillary classes. Rahm’s kids go to Lab where the day is MWRF 8:30-2:30 and T 8:30-1:30 why would we want any less for our children that he does for his??? The fight is JUST BEGINNING!

  • 29. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    My kids go to a fantastic neighborhood school and thriving at 5.75. there is NO REASON for anything longer than 6.5=IL avg. Rahmbo is INSANE! Too much dRAHMa!! But he knows this is just starting, contracts have to be signed…this is NOT a done deal!

  • 30. Chris  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    ” there is NO REASON for anything longer than 6.5″

    Really? None?

    Are you staking out a negotiating position, or do you have facts to back that up?

  • 31. sandersrockets  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    @soxsideirish4 I agree with you. Rahm is showing that he is getting nervous.
    @Chris I do agree with you about contract negotiating but see very differently when it comes to teachers. I will never vilify teachers and don’t join that bandwagon. It’s wrong. These are my children. You’re darn right they should be paid for their time when they are with them. When they are home doing papers or lesson planning, of course not, but if my child is in front of them, pay them. Trust me, the Saturn my son’s 5th grade teacher drives isn’t screaming “rich.” She’s a professional with a masters degree.

  • 32. Chris  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    “I will never vilify teachers and don’t join that bandwagon.”

    To be clear, I’m not “on that bandwagon”, just noting that the tactics being employed by CPS and Rahm have a cognizable origin.

  • 33. Mom  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    Chris you are adding nothing to this conversation but negativity. Enough already! If I had the money, I would send my children to private school in a heartbeat.

    Any plan unfunded is simply just a plan. The mayor is doing a great job at fooling those who feel this is a victory. Exactly how will this extra time be spent? Using what resources? What will the typical day look like?

    Why does he make his press releases at Disney II vs a school that he feels will truly benefit from the additional time? Why isn’t he at a school on the South Side or Englewood touring the classrooms, interacting with children? This makes me sick.

  • 34. sandersrockets  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    Amen @33 on ALL accounts!! Rahm is too much. Did anyone see the article on him in Rolling Stone?

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/why-rahm-emanuel-hates-democracy-20120403?stop_mobi=yes

  • 35. Atty mom  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    I agree with Chris and have a hard time taking seriously anyone who tells someone else “enough already.”

  • 36. Chris  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    ” If I had the money, I would send my children to private school in a heartbeat.”

    I would not.

  • 37. Angie  |  April 10, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    @29. SoxSideIrish4 “My kids go to a fantastic neighborhood school and thriving at 5.75.”

    They are thriving without recess and 15 minute lunch? Really?

    It’s more likely that their teachers are thriving because they can go home at 1:45 and beat the traffic. Are you one of them?

    “Don’t get distracted with this progress/keep up the fight for your kids. ”

    Why should I fight against something that will be good for my kids? Why should I fight for teacher’s paychecks and too-short work day? Is CTU going to show up and protest at parents’ workplaces when they are downsized or their salaries are frozen because of current economy?

  • 38. mom  |  April 10, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    Are you all seriously arguing and worrying over 30 minutes?

  • 39. Chris  |  April 10, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Oh, and to add, also have no intent of making way to the suburbs, barring Detroitification of Chicago, or children developing issues (knock on wood) which CPS won’t/can’t/refuses to appropriately deal with.

  • 40. mom  |  April 10, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    Are we now complaining about which school he made an announcement at? What next?

  • 41. Chris  |  April 10, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    “Are you all seriously arguing and worrying over 30 minutes?”

    But it’s UNFUNDED!!!! Extra work for no extra pay (oh, wait–has that been happening in the private sector for two decades?? Not that it makes it right, but still …).

  • 42. Sped Mom  |  April 10, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    @39 “children developing issues (knock on wood) which CPS won’t/can’t/refuses to appropriately deal with.”

    Good luck with that one, and god help you if your child does develop issues, so to speak.

  • 43. Mom22  |  April 10, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    To clarify, I was not the “mom” who posted #38 and #40. I added a 22 to set myself apart:)

    The students at Blaine seem to thrive. There are schools that have implemented recess. Lunch is 20 minutes and I know of a couple

    schools where students have a 20 min recess. So to say that it’s impossible to thrive with the current length of day is silly. The school scores are enough to put that argument to rest.

    #38 it’s not just 30 minutes. Where in the world did you get that from? Do the math, Rahm did. “teachers will be in school 7 hours and 40 minutes, an increase of 85 minutes.”

  • 44. Mom22  |  April 10, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    I wonder what this means for PreK ????

  • 45. King Ph.D  |  April 10, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    So two of the three parties have had input regarding the longer day – Parents and the Mayor. Contract negotiations with the CTU are next.

    Perhaps a grand bargain can be reached.

    It seems to me that a fair deal will include:

    1) A tax increase. (ouch from me!)

    2) No salary increase for staff for the term of the contract. (Ouch from CTU),

    3) A 6.5 hour school day for elementary and a 7 hour day for HIgh Schools with adequate staffing/funding. (sigh from kids and parents)

    4) An agreement take the tax revenue and make the Teachers pension fund solvent through funding and pension reform (sigh from teachers),

    6) State legislation to eliminate the collection of more than one pension from any public employer in Illinois, especially politicians. (Ouch from clouted)

    5) and the end of privatization efforts by the shills from Stand For Children. (Ouch from out of state backers of the mayor)

    Everybody Takes a HAIRCUT. We are all sinners in this godawful mess.

    Maybe even Bruce Dold of the Tribune could find something to like here.

  • 46. Angie  |  April 10, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    @45. King Ph.D: How about:

    Stop dragging your feet on the gambling legislation, open casinos and install slot machines all over Chicago, and use the revenue for funding and improving the education.

  • 47. Lakeview Dad  |  April 10, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    @ 6 Junior – Nail on the head. Rahm has just employed the ‘preemptive concession’ utilized to great effect recently at the White House. He now is positioned as reasonable and accommodating… And other parties that balk will appear rigid and inflexible. Prediction: this is where it will end up, and some, but not all, funding will be found.

  • 48. Lakeview Dad  |  April 10, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    Rather, @7 Junior. See my previous.

  • 49. King Ph.D.  |  April 10, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    @46 Angie – Personally not a big fan of gambling. It is generally an income transfer from the cognitively slow, the poor and the impulsive. As a society, we want to discourage this behavior. A lot like drugs, sex/pornography/prostitution, booze etc.

    That being said, making social vices illegal has not been particulary effective either. Additionally, given our proximity to Indiana, it is a net cash transfer from our state.

    Perhaps allowing it with no extensive advertising is the best way to go. Run it like a methadone clinic with a bit of stigma attached (where is the church cause you need them here). To maintain the highest revenue, operators should bid for the contract to run the state casino with a percentage of the earnings as profit, and it might work nicely.

  • 50. HS Mom  |  April 10, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    @45 OK, I can see it (if I squint) #3 is a no gain, so not my sigh. HS already has a 7 hour day and a 6.5 hour elementary day is just a dressed up 5.75 hour day with recess and longer lunch in the middle of the day like it should be. Extra half hour all around – I’m for it.

  • 51. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 10, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    Angie~

    my kids thrive at a neighborhood school that is 5.75. They get out at 2.45pm and they have recess for 20 minutes every day. They have ss, social studies and FRENCH every day. The day should only be 6.5 bc it’s IL avg, but my neighborhood school really doesn’t need it.

  • 52. Angie  |  April 10, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    @49. King Ph.D.: “Personally not a big fan of gambling. It is generally an income transfer from the cognitively slow, the poor and the impulsive. ”

    I’m not talking about poor folks playing the quarter machines, although every little bit helps. The real money comes from the high rollers who can drop thousands of dollars without blinking an eye. And there should be plenty of those among the people who come here on business, convention attendees, etc. Many casinos also have concert halls which could be additional sources of revenue.

    And I wouldn’t skimp on advertising or shame people for gambling, either. Let’s consider it a fundraiser for a good cause.

  • 53. mom  |  April 10, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    Mom22, please see @27 above – we are talking about 30 minutes more in terms of time difference when it comes to pay. Also remember that teachers are salaried, not hourly workers. They should get all the respect in the world, but having a huge fight for more take home pay when CPS really should be using any found cash for fixing up schools, buying supplies, hiring extra aids and asking for 30% more pay is rediculous.

    We are talking about a difference in 30 minutes when people keep saying how perfect it would be to have a 6 1/2 hour day, but 7 hours is way too much.

  • 54. LT  |  April 10, 2012 at 10:41 pm

    I wish there was more info on HIGH SCHOOLS! Not everyone is concerned about Elementary schools(not that they aren’t important but stil..). I want to see MORE plans for High schools as they are a completely different playing field.

  • 55. John  |  April 10, 2012 at 10:45 pm

    @52 60-65% of a casino’s revenue comes from slot machines. High rollers generally do not play slots, so I also agree gambling tends to be a regressive tax.

    I do support a casino in Chicago, but not convinced it will have a positive effect on the city.

  • 56. AEpp  |  April 10, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    @Mom: The difference between my 5 year old going to school from 8-2:30 or 8-3 p.m. is a big deal in my house and I’d gladly welcome the 6.5 hour day. I’d welcome it when he’s 6, 7, 8, 9, 10…
    I fully believe children deserve time to be children and I know that not everyone is in the same boat as my family and I respect that, but it is proven time and time again that children up to 3rd grade learn best when they are PLAYING. It’s about quality NOT quantity in my book and right now we have a lot of quantity, but nothing to make it quality.

  • 57. mom  |  April 11, 2012 at 6:11 am

    @Mom, why do you think that your 5 year old will not be playing during that extra 30 minutes? When my kids were in the early grades, their school had a lot of play based activities. It wasn’t all just sitting at a desk and reading and writing. I would trust a school would use that time appropriately based on the age of the kids and it would just give those younger kids more transition time, time to actually open their milk or juice box during lunch, time to make and actually finish a craft, etc. If the kids need more play time and moving around at that age, trust your teachers to provide that.

  • 58. mom  |  April 11, 2012 at 6:12 am

    sorry – @AEpp

  • 59. dave  |  April 11, 2012 at 6:47 am

    Will academic centers(7th and 8th) be 7.5 or 7.0 hour days?

  • 60. WRP Mom  |  April 11, 2012 at 6:53 am

    @dave-Academic Centers will follow the high school schedule/calendar, so it will be 7.5.

  • 61. Chris  |  April 11, 2012 at 6:58 am

    “teachers will be in school 7 hours and 40 minutes”

    How is 7:40 1:25 longer than the 6:30 day (with “lunch” at the end of the day) they currently have? Sounds like only 70 minutes. And are teachers currently allowed to not show up until the second of the first bell? And leave the second of the last bell–potentially getting out of the building before the kids?

  • 62. Chris  |  April 11, 2012 at 7:03 am

    Sped mom–

    as I’ve said before, I think it’s partly intentional at CPS, and it sucks. I’m sorry for your difficulties and do wish it were different, but I dont think that change is likely any time soon.

  • [...] 7 Hour Day. So it is written. So it shall be. cpsobsessed:  I’m not sure how to react.   I am happy it will be less than 7.5 hours which seemed insane. I’m still not getting how he gets off calling it a “Fuller Day” when we’re barely scraping by on the funding. [...]

  • 64. momtoo  |  April 11, 2012 at 8:57 am

    My kids private catholic school has been 7 hrs for the past five years. It is interesting to watch this debate since I never thought of it as long. The younger grades get recess twice a day to blow off steam and play. They have specials (Art, Spanish, gym and computers) throughout the week. The primary teachers have planning time during the day when their students are in their specials.

    My kids have less homework than some of their public school friends because they have more time during the day in instruction and ability to work on their assignments as school.

  • 65. cpsobsessed  |  April 11, 2012 at 9:00 am

    @momtoo. Thanks for the input. How big are the classes at your school? One of my concerns is that with big classes, it’s harder to give kids personal attention to help them get their indiv needs met (which is what really can make a difference in learning.). I’m not sure whether more big-class instruction is going to advance my son’s learning any better….

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 66. LR  |  April 11, 2012 at 9:02 am

    I think Rahm is doing this to try to silence the parents or possibly to avoid a teacher strike in the near future (I heard rumors of a spring strike last week – just hearsay). I still 7 hours is too long. My son goes to a Catholic school, which has a 6 hour and 50 minute day every day except Wednesday, which is a 6 hour day (teachers meet every Wednesday). He is in Kindergarten this year. He has a really hard time with the 6 hour and 50 minute days (and he is older – already 6.5 years). Wednesdays are much more tolerable. Additionally, I have a daughter in a CPS school that has a 6.5 hour day, which works well. I still think that short of CPS finding hundreds of millions to fill the hole they are in, we are going to end up with a 6.5 hour day and 5 extra calendar days.

  • 67. CLB  |  April 11, 2012 at 9:03 am

    Love the 10 Commandments reference.

  • 68. cpsobsessed  |  April 11, 2012 at 9:06 am

    Heh, heh. Thanks for noticing. If CPS gets a bunch of funding, I say we all celebrate like that scene at the bottom of the mountain – wine, gold statues, togas, etc. :)

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 69. Christine  |  April 11, 2012 at 10:06 am

    A 7 or 7.5 hour school day at a private school is a very different animal than that at a CPS school. A PP said “in younger grades my kids got a lot of play-based activities.” In CPS there are no play-based activities. Not even in kindergarten.

    Another PP said their child had two recesses with plenty of time to blow of steam. TWO recesses??? REALLY? Wow. At CPS you’re lucky if you get one. Many schools don’t have the facilities for recess at all. Even at my daughter’s pioneer school where they admittedly are getting more recess this year than last year, they often spend recess indoors (because it’s too cold) or because they lose recess privileges.

    I am, on the whole, OK with the 7-hour school day even though it has been a tough adjustment for my 1st grader. I acknowledge that for many if not most CPS students, the 7-hour school day is better than the pre-existing 5.75 hour school day. BUT I would like to see CPS acknolwledge that kindergartners have different needs than 4th graders. I haven’t seen any evidence that the time will be spent in developmentally-appropriate ways. Not saying it’s not there, I just haven’t seen it.

  • 70. mom2  |  April 11, 2012 at 10:12 am

    “In CPS there are no play-based activities. Not even in kindergarten” – I disagree and had two kids in kindergarten in CPS. Although I suppose it depends on your definition of play based activities. Is jumping when you hear a word starting with J and stretching if you hear a word that starts with S or running to the right color on a rug considered “play based activity”? If so, we had it.

  • 71. Conor Klaus  |  April 11, 2012 at 10:21 am

    I think there is less discussion of High Schools here because they have more wiggle room in their budgets. For example, AP positions are awarded on a sliding scale with enrollment, not just one cut-off number as with Elem. An extra class period or free period or whatever is more manageable with 16 yr olds than 8 year olds, especially 8 – year olds supervised in my classroom (since it’s raining outside) by a parent volunteer.

    There are so many contingencies that heap more non instructional face time on regular classroom teachers at the elementary level.

    Imagine a snowy morning in January. The parent volunteers stay home, so does the tech teacher and the ESP. Check that the Computer teacher’s out all week – Lab closed. Oops and no sub for two of those days because the only subs we got are covering for two teachers at a conference. Does the regular ed teacher endure the consequences of other teacher’s absences? You betcha, to a greater degree than the reg ed HS teacher

    I don’t mind working this longer day – it’ll be good for the Science Labs I teach and students need recess. But I foresee too many instances where I’ll be required to supervise kids (i.e. work) during “prep” or “recess” time because there are simply not enough bodies (no $$$$$) to supervise kids. We have a hard enough time getting adequate sub coverage as it is now – are THEY going to work longer for the same pay?

  • 72. Gunnery Sgt. Hartman  |  April 11, 2012 at 10:44 am

    #16 I would say that the kids at Northside are a hell of a lot smarter than the ones at Parker. Why? Because they made it there through merit, not becaus etheir folks can afford to donate a gym. Plenty of private school kids who are “legacies”.

  • 73. HPMom  |  April 11, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    @69 Christine:

    Your CPS experience sounds very different than mine. My son is in K at our neighborhood school and his class is very much play-based. We currently have a 6.5 hour day and have two recesses (which the school renamed brain-boost this year). Brain-boost cannot be taken away as a form of punishment- the school places value on exercise for the body and the brain. If the weather is horrible, the kids stay in but have indoor brain-boost activities like dancing led by the Principle (Dr. Beckwith is the best!), etc.

    Even with a 6.5 hour day, my son feels really rushed while eating lunch so I’m not opposed to a little more time in his school day but a 7.5 hour day seemed too long for an early elementary-aged student. For my family, 7 hours is a good compromise.

  • 74. junior  |  April 11, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    @73 HPMom

    Sounds like Principal Beckwith has a great approach in the “Brain Boost” activity. I think kids going from a 5.75-hour day with no recess to a decompressed 7-hour day with recess will have a better educational experience — socially, behaviorally, emotionally and academically.

    I hope Dr. Beckwith will help spread the gospel to other CPS schools about the benefits of physical activity for brain development.

  • 75. AEpp  |  April 11, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    @Mom: I have spent the last 3 weeks touring schools trying to decide what school to send my child too and yes, kids aren’t stuck at a “desk” all day long, but they aren’t playing all day long either. They will have one 25 min recess and that includes however long it takes to put on coats, which is an increase from 20 mins. In a 7 hour day kids get “25″ mins to run around, use their imaginations and just play in whatever manner they choose. I wish they had more, but they don’t, so it’s my job to give him as much time to just be a kid as I can out of school. CPS does not follow a play based education, or at least that’s what the last 7 schools have told me and those schools will be our choice. I fully support a fully funded 6.5 hour day, funding that should one school claim doesn’t come through they’d have to raise $40,000 from it’s parent body. Awesome.

  • 76. Chris  |  April 11, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    “CPS does not follow a play based education”

    Where in the US is there a *public* school system that follows play-based education past, perhaps, kindergarten?

  • 77. Play based  |  April 11, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    @75, I think you need to google “play based education”

    It ain’t running around outside “playing”

  • 78. junior  |  April 11, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    @76
    I’ve heard of Reggio Emilia inspired pre-K teachers in CPS, and of course, there are CPS Montessori programs.

    Of course, if you attend CPS, you won’t attend with peers who 100% will go to 4-year colleges — but I believe some of us can see a positive in that fact. My kids have been in classes with kids with all sorts of special needs and varied backgrounds — and that has enhanced their education, not inhibited it.

  • 79. AEpp  |  April 11, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    @75 I never implied that play based education was running around outside, but thank you for enlightening me on what it “ain’t”.

    @74 I was responding to post #57′s claim of plent of “play based activities” in her child’s classroom. As I said earlier the 7 schools we will have to consider said CPS doesn’t follow that structure or an emergent curriculum. Obviously, I can’t speak for every school and this whole subject is off topic.

    These are just my own personal reasons for supporting the 6.5 hour school day and for the life of me I can’t figure out why that has ruffled feathers here.

  • 80. CEM1218  |  April 11, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    FWIW- In my opinion, they had the press conference at Disney II because DII has been an extended day school since it started in 2008. Parents fundraised like crazy for it before this year. Teachers overwhelmingly agreed to the Pioneer Program. The school has shown an incredible commitment to extended day before it was a hot topic. I am sure there are other schools that could say the same thing, and I think having the press conference at those schools would have also made total sense. It was Rahm’s way of saying, “Look at this school- extended day works.”

  • 81. anonymous  |  April 11, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    Stand for Children has folks here writing the nonsense that it is all going to work out, never you mind, the mayor has it figured out.
    A deficit of $600-700-maybe $1 billion, the end of the pension payment holiday comes next year and $900 mln is due, the state is broke and is cutting ed funds.
    Houston added academic and social supports to its longer day for a small number of schools — cost $2,000 per pupil.
    Boston spent $1,300 per pupil at a few low-performing schools.

    The time alone means nothing for students. It is the supports that help improve outcomes.

  • 82. Jen K  |  April 11, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    I’m a parent of Disney II – from the beginning. We did raise money for our extended day, then extended the day further when we become part of the Pioneer Program. Frankly, the kids didn’t even notice they were in school longer. I noticed that my daughter finished her lunch (thanks to a mere 5 minutes extra time). I notice that her grades are still stellar. I notice the interesting facts she comes home with because there is time to go research random things that come up in class. I notice, when I volunteer, that the kids are having fun with math centers & continually moving around (not stuck at a desk or table for an hour). I notice that the kids are outside, a lot, for gym or recess. I encourage you all to watch the actual news conference, if you haven’t done so already, and hear what her teacher, Mrs. Garrison has to say about the importance of a longer school day. Disney II is a amazing school and all CPS students should have the opportunity to have this kind of education. As a parent who has been living with the Full School Day, I support it 100%.

  • 83. mom  |  April 11, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    @82 – thank you so much for sharing something real about the longer day instead of all the worrying from parents (or CTU plants) that haven’t even experienced it yet. I’m glad to see a place where it is working and where parents and teachers support it. I knew it was possible.

  • 84. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 11, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    I hate that Stand 4Children are on this website lying too! I can point them out bc of their rhetoric. My son is thriving at 5.75 day neighborhood school w/20 minutes recess, ss, science and FRENCH everyday.

    CPS can’t fund the 5.75 day now and they won’t be able to fund a 7hr day…Rahm knows it and so does every other educated person who has researched.

    Disney II school seems like it did a lot of fundraising (some schools canNOT do that in this economy) also, they get extra funding bc they are a magnet not neighborhood school.

    I will say this, that both my boys when they were in 1/2day gr K really learned a lot and their teacher (the both had the same one) was really excellent at marrying the play & learning & making it fun.

    I support a well rounded 6.5 hr fully funded day. NO RESEARCH has ever shown that adding time past this has helped children achieve. Even Houston who Rahm keeps talking about w/in the first year of Houston 20, discontinued their longer day/year bc their evidence had shown smaller classes, more tutoring was what helped their students achieve.

    Parents, please don’t rely on Rahm or CPS to tell you the truth, they just caught Rahm manipulating data from the research (SUNTIMES April 9, 2012)~but no matter what, the deal is CPS has no new funds and can’t fund a 7 hr day~that’s why the budget is not going to the teachers on the 12th, it now is being sent sometime in May…THERES NO MONEY NO FUNDS!

  • 85. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 11, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Here’s the Suntimes article that Rahm was manipulating the research data and he got caught!

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/11806381-418/parent-groups-data-for-longer-school-day-doesnt-add-up.html

    What a liar~That’s why we can’t TRUST HIM or CPS!

  • 86. Think Positive  |  April 11, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    82 & 83
    It is refreshing to have this looked at as the potential benefits it holds for the students instead of steadfast arguments to fight furhter for 6.5 or 6.75. At some point it becomes just silly. I feel like we are pretty close to this point. It would be nice if cpsobsessed started a string on looking at the potential improvements. I bet this group can brainstorm a lot of innovative ideas that parents can take back to their individual schools. Sure, funding is and will always be an issue in Illinois but that should not stop us from taking advantage of significant improvements for our kids.

    Here is a thought. How can your school integrate Arts on a tight budget?

    Readers Theater is a program for language arts that has the kids read stories (for younger) or books or novels (for older kids) and then act them out with students playing roles and orchestrating the play production. My school does this and the older kids put on a play in the auditorium and the Kindergarteners do a series of plays in small groups based on nursery rhymes, classic child stories, or following an authors study.

    How to integrate music on a tight budget?

    My school has developed a music curriculum despite not having funds for a dedicated teacher. They study composers, learn music notes, etc. at one grade, then in 6th grade one of the teachers took guitar lessons, PTA bought 30 guitars and they learn guitar. I also heard of a school that has a weekly assembly in the auditorium (or on rainy recess days) and do rhythmic beats as a huge group, have one side do one pattern and the other another. Integrate the wave. It sounded like a blast and the principal leads it.

    Just two examples, but I am sure there are thousands more. Instead of whine, let’s share.

  • 87. Angie  |  April 11, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    @ SoxSideIrish4 and anonymous (really? another one?) : CTU shills have been on this site for months proclaiming that the sky will fall and our children will be doomed if teachers are not allowed to go home at 1:45 any more. Do you have any proof that every “parent” who complains about their child suffering dire concequences from the longer school day is legitimate? How do we know that you yourself are not a plant, what with coming here all of a sudden and shouting in all caps about Rahm’s insanity?

    I’m sure there are little geniuses that can learn everything they need to know in couple of hours, but most children are not like that. If they were, we wouldn’t have so many failing schools in this city. So don’t be so selfish, and allow the Mayor to do what is best for the majority of the CPS children, and not the select few high achievers with educated and involved parents.

  • 88. Mom  |  April 11, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    I guess what annoys me most about @84 is that his/her kids already get recess, social studies, and French. Not every kid gets this! Great, so your day is “complete” at 5.75 hours. Most schools don’t have art, music, recess, PE, foreign language, etc. with 5.75 hour days. Why do you get to complain (already having everything) and deny everyone else what you have? I also doubt your kids are really benefitting from everything they “get.” It’s just not possible to teach (well) art, music, recess, PE, French, etc., along with the core subjects in just 5.75 hours. This is why schools need more time.

  • 89. mom  |  April 11, 2012 at 8:39 pm

    @SoxSideIrish. It is pretty easy to tell who you are based on your rhetoric. Give me a break and stop peddling your press coverage. Parents on this blog have a balanced view and are looking for solutions that benefit the majority of children while also keeping their own kids in mind.

  • 90. Lakeview Dad  |  April 11, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    Ok @81 and @84. Paranoid much? Let’s have show of hands… Who posting here is a schill for Stand With/for Children? Anyone? Nope, just active and engaged parents I guess.

  • 91. kikiandkyle  |  April 11, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    It’s no wonder Rahm can’t please the parents of this city when they can’t even agree on what it is they want.

  • 92. Harry&Jack's mom  |  April 11, 2012 at 10:08 pm

    I am a northside parent from Skinner North, one of the Pioneer Schools, who also happens to have a child currently in one of the 5.75 hour day schools (8 a.m. to 1:45 p.m.).

    Maybe no one wants to hear this, but my family and I have really liked the “longer day” this year and are looking forward to next year.

    The first month was tough, to be sure, because our little guy was tired, but it leveled out and it seemed to work beautifully as we all adjusted our expectations and teachers adjusted the homework levels.

    Our kid loved his recess and extra time in classes. I volunteered in his classroom several times this year and the days did not feel as frantic as in my other child’s school where those teachers have the Herculean task of maximizing 5.75 hours with fidgety kids.

    Skinner North offers some free and fee-based afterschool programs, so we enrolled him in the free one for two days so he would not have to take the bus home everyday, which can be a grind, and he could have some of that valuable playtime afterschool without having to travel for it. He loved it and still got home by 5:30 to have dinner with family, do a little homework, watch a TV show or play his DSi and hit the hay. He still went to bed at 7:15 every night and woke up fairly refreshed at 6 to hop on the bus at 6:40 a.m. (yes, the commute is less than ideal, but it is worth it, as this school is a great fit for him, at this point). We deliberately make weekends all about our family, so we do get to enjoy more time together. I know this schedule does not work for every family, but it’s what has worked for us.

    I have become a student of all things CPS and have been, at turns, inspired, entertained, outraged and amused by how this change has come about. I have very grateful for the level-headed and transparent leadership of the administration and teachers at Skinner North. This could have been a real disaster. The horsetrading and public posturing on all sides have been exhausting. But the final product, 7 hours, seems right to me.

    I won’t lie–I am concerned about how CPS will afford this in the fall, given the announced budget shortfall. I am worried that the CTU will really strike for a few weeks in the fall.

    Most of all, I worry how my child will fill the EXTRA 30 minutes he will get “back” when his school changes from a massive 7.5 day to just a paltry 7.0. (Just kidding!!! It’s actually pretty great.)

    I am excited for my other child’s school to go 7 hours. He is thrilled over the prospect of recess and I am thrilled that he may experience a more relaxed and enriching environment.

    I think we will all experience growing pains as we implement the 7 hour day, but our kids may be able to enjoy school more and get more out of it. That is, if all of the well-meaning grown ups can just get out of their way.

    Take heart, everyone.

  • 93. kstaigs  |  April 11, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    I was at the open house at Edison RGC today, where they passed out the proposed day schedule for the 7.5 hour day, which they will now amend to fit the 7 hour. It included additional lunch time (great!) and time for what they term intervention, which is essentially extra time spent working in smaller groups on whatever that group needs most…if they are struggling in math, extra time with the math teacher. Or reading, or French, or whatever it may be. Even in the early grades they visit different teachers for different subjects, so the staff already exists for these kinds of designated work groups. They can handle small groups of different grades at the same time, working on different things. I saw something similar in action today. I have no doubt that this school, at least, can use this time well and wisely.

  • 94. Christine  |  April 12, 2012 at 7:50 am

    I’m also a Skinner North mom like Harry & Jack’s mom above. I was, at first, totally and completely againist the longer day. It was very hard on my 1st grader for about 2 months actually. I think Kindergarten gets 2 recesses, 1st grade only had one. Anyway, the point is that I have come around w/r/t the longer day. It’s still not ideal for my family but I have to say SN has done a great job of enacting the longer day.

    That being said…our school has parents like Harry&Jack’s mom and myself who have the time to volunteer. We can raise money for specials and programs we want to see in our school. We also get extra funding for being a classical school. What about all the schools in Chicago who don’t have these benefits?

    Rahm & JC Brizard say that all this extra time will afford kids the time to do science, art, etc. But if there’s no money to pay teachers to do this then how can they?

  • 95. Mommy  |  April 12, 2012 at 9:54 am

    The thing is, schools that raise money have lost discretionary funds because of fewer kids on free and reduced lunch. Schools that have more kids on free and reduced lunch get much more funding. A significant difference with schools getting $400-500K. My kids school got $35K last year and parents raised the rest.

    What I don’t get is how my kids school with parents raising funds to make the discrtionary bucket about $400K (some from state rest from parents efforts) AND schools with parents who do not raise money ALSO getting about $400K discretionary—-why don’t we all have music/art/language, etc.?

    While I fully agree that the system is short on cash, I also think there is a significant opportunity to push principals to spend their money wisely. Do some really need 3 office staff? Security is already a line item on the schools I looked at, so they are not buying more security. Why aren’t they hiring a music teacher?

    To restate, I do not think the system is flush with cash, but the numbers just do not foot. If we all end up with about the same bucket of money in the end, is the issue how the funds are managed at the school level?

  • 96. Mayfair Dad  |  April 12, 2012 at 10:44 am

    Mayfair Twins are at Disney II and thriving with the 7.5 hour day. Done correctly, it works beautifully. I have given up trying to fix CPS and instead will devote my full energy to supporting and protecting this great thing we have at D2. Parents who are fighting for a shorter longer day are de facto negotiating on behalf of CTU whether they realize it or not. Funding is a valid concern, but I see the implementation of the full day as a first step in the plan, not a one-off PR stunt. I’d rather place my faith in Rahm than the CORE zealots running CTU. Parent’s who do the union’s bidding will become disenchanted before this is all over. Unions do what unions do – protect the financial interests of their members. There will be a strike, and teachers will find out soon enough how the silent majority of tax-paying parents really feel.

  • 97. Vlajos  |  April 12, 2012 at 10:51 am

    “I’d rather place my faith in Rahm than the CORE zealots running CTU. Parent’s who do the union’s bidding will become disenchanted before this is all over. Unions do what unions do – protect the financial interests of their members. There will be a strike, and teachers will find out soon enough how the silent majority of tax-paying parents really feel.”

    This

  • 98. anonymous  |  April 12, 2012 at 10:54 am

    D2 is a beautiful school in a lovely park-like setting with all the amenities and wonderful funding. It’s the perfect backdrop for the Mayor’s press conferences.
    But 160 CPS schools lack a library. Others lack a cafeteria, or a playground in decent repair. And more time in underfunded schools means less enrichment or intermediation.
    The Chicago Coalition for Quality Education wants funding for a quality day for all schools. Simple idea, isn’t it?

  • 99. anonymous  |  April 12, 2012 at 10:56 am

    #93 would you share the schedule?

  • 100. Mommy  |  April 12, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Mayfair dad, you are very accurate IMO as a parent and taxpayer.

  • 101. anonymous  |  April 12, 2012 at 11:07 am

    And very lucky parent and taxpayer to have kids in D2.

  • 102. anonymous  |  April 12, 2012 at 11:17 am

    There are a lot of parents whose kids go to school for 6.6 hours — b/c that is the average length of day in the US.

    The average in Illinois is 6.5 hours. That includes specials like the arts, PE and foreign language.

    That is the model that give kids flexibility and parents the time they want to spend with their kids.

    After school programs help parents who need childcare, but other parents can opt-out.

    That kind of flexibility is standard now. We are getting no choice now. B/c the mayor has his mandate. Schools that want more ad are flush enough to pay for enrichment — by all means, go ahead, wouldn’t think of interfering. Would like the same consideration for schools where the majority of parents have been surveyed and said they are not interested in keeping their kids in school longer b/c their school doesn’t look anything like D2. No beautiful mosaic murals surround the art room. Just think of it — a separate art room! A full time art teacher!

  • 103. Mommy  |  April 12, 2012 at 11:24 am

    @ anonymous
    Sour grapes. We should all be supportive that D2 is a great school. Why get bitter about it? Really, how is the world ending because you will add 30 minutes to your 6.5 hour day? While I appreciate your passion, I just don’t get it anymore.

  • 104. anonymous  |  April 12, 2012 at 11:26 am

    Oy vey! when parents say they want a school day that is the same length as the rest of Illinois and one that is funded and planned …. that’s exactly what they mean. When parents say they would rather have their kids home at a reasonable time, it’s b/c they don’t want a radical change to their family life and — hard to believe — their CPS school just doesn’t look at all like D2.

    The union is fighting its own battles. We aren’t fighting their battles, and they aren’t fighting ours. No reason to keep going on about this bit, Angie ol’ girl. ; )

    If you are happy and you know it, keep your kid in school.

    Others of us want the after school programs to be optional, as before.

  • 105. anonymous  |  April 12, 2012 at 11:29 am

    There is a huge difference among CPS school facilities, isn’t there?

    I am glad for D2 kids and parents.

    I’d also like to be glad for the 10,000 homeless students CPS also educates.

    Is that sour grapes?

  • 106. mom2  |  April 12, 2012 at 11:33 am

    @95 Mommy, you make some very good points about funding. I, too, wonder why schools that should be getting all that extra money due to more free or reduced lunch students aren’t able to offer similar things to schools that have to fund raise to end up with the same amount of money. Doesn’t make sense to me.
    Can some of you anonymous posters like 102 explain it please?

  • 107. Paul  |  April 12, 2012 at 11:35 am

    I agree with 95 and 96. Parents and taxpayers need to pay attention to how the money is spent at the school level, and how teachers spend their time. It’s fine to advocate at the city and state levels for higher teacher pay, more money for schools, and hiring more teachers to provide enrichment. But, how the school uses the funds and teacher resources it has varies quite a bit from school to school. Some use their resources wisely, and others don’t. Some principals and teachers involve parents and the community in its major decisions, and others don’t.

  • 108. Bob O'Bowie  |  April 12, 2012 at 11:36 am

    “Parents who are fighting for a shorter longer day are de facto negotiating on behalf of CTU whether they realize it or not. ”

    Spot-on.

  • 109. cpsobsessed  |  April 12, 2012 at 11:40 am

    I don’t care if I’m fighting FOR the union on something I agree with it. Why would that matter. I can’t say I agree with everything, but I (personally) am not all out anti union.

    Btw, I had one of those corporate american job days yesterday where I thought “today it would have been easier to be a teacher.”.

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 110. SutherlandParent  |  April 12, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    To #105′s point, there is a huge disparity in CPS facilities. The main part of our school was built in 1925, and it’s a grand old building. The neighborhood is a safe one and we have a fairly new playground. But we don’t have a lunchroom or a library, and with three classes per grade for K-8, kids only get PE once a week. That means when the weather is bad, kids may only leave the classroom on bathroom breaks. And if kids need to break out for small groups, they have to stay in the classroom or go into the hallway–there is just no extra space in the building. It can be a long day, staying in one room with 32-35 other kids.

    CPS built an annex in the 1980s, but chose to build a very small, one-story structure without a lunchroom. I’m sure CPS didn’t have any extra money then either…

  • 111. Mayfair Dad  |  April 12, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    @ 110 Sutherland; Your school is a replica of Palmer on the north side, with a gym on one end and an auditorium on the other. There are others. They are commonly called “Dever” buildings after the architect, who also served as an early Commissioner of Chicago Schools. There is an elementary school named after him too.

    At the time they were considered state-of-the-art, but somehow they forgot a lunchroom. Maybe kids were expected to walk home at lunch. Beautiful old buildings indeed.

  • 112. SutherlandParent  |  April 12, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Thanks, Mayfair Dad–now I’ve learned something today! :) I wouldn’t trade the beautiful old building, but it would be nice to have a lunchroom…

  • 113. mom2  |  April 12, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Some schools turn one classroom into a library

  • 114. SutherlandParent  |  April 12, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    #113, it’s a great idea, but unfortunately, we don’t have any spare classrooms, or even any half-empty rooms. For the last few years, my kids have had at least 31 other kids in class with them, and that’s on the low end for some of the grades at Sutherland. Bless our librarian, she hauls around her book cart every day to the different classrooms, but there are only so many books that fit on it.

    To get back to the topic, I am in favor of a longer day, but I did have concerns about how the teachers and the students would manage 7.5 hours in such close quarters, particularly when the weather would be too bad to go outside.

  • 115. Jen K  |  April 12, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    @102 – The mosaic at D2 was started by a parent volunteer & D2 is an art & technology magnet school which is why we have always had a full-time art teacher. I agree wholeheartedly that things are not equal, and my original post says ALL students should have the great educational experience that we are getting at D2.

    I should probably be more concerned about funding but what choice to we, as parents, have? The CPS system is completely inequitable and we need to start somewhere. I’m not willing to wait around until the money is guaranteed: I believe Rahm will find it. Something major needs to change & my experience with the Full Day says that is a great start.

    This is a BHAG if I’ve ever seen one.

  • 116. kstaigs  |  April 12, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Here is a summary of the Edison proposed schedule for K. This was for the 7.5 hour day, mind you, so it will change.
    7:45am start, 15 minutes of “advisory” time. Not sure what that means, I imagine getting settled and teacher’s discretion.
    8am: Literature.
    9:45am: recess.
    10:06am: Math.
    10:48am: M W Math, T TH Fine Arts, F LRC (library).
    11:30am: Lunch.
    12:16pm: M W F French, T Social Studies, Th Fine Arts.
    12:58pm: M T TH Science, W PE, F French.
    1:40pm: M T W Social Studies, TH PE, F Choice.
    2;22pm: Intevention (time for homework or further help in areas in which they are struggling).
    3:10: Advisory.
    3:15pm: End of day.

    I assume this info. is ok to share, as the schedule for all grades was also handed out when I took the open house tour in the Fall. It should also be noted that recess takes place in the street next to the school, which is blocked off during school hours. So no, everything is not ideal here. But they make do.

    I teach part time in the system, and the difference from facility to facility really is amazing. And terrible. But some of the worst buildings house some of the happiest, most vibrant schools, because the principal, teachers and parents work together to make it so. Dixon and Cleveland come to mind. There is color, art, and life everywhere in those schools. The classrooms are well organized and maintained. And it is a pleasure to be with those kids because you can tell they are being well taken care of during their time in school, they feel safe and happy and get along well. And then there are schools where you walk in and feel sad and hopeless. And it is all I can do to make it through the day, and I can’t imagine how those kids do. I wish I had any idea how to solve any of that, but one thing I do know is that it is not any one person’s fault.

  • 117. LS Dad  |  April 12, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    “Parents who are fighting for a shorter longer day are de facto negotiating on behalf of CTU whether they realize it or not. ”

    Lol, so you would fight for the longer school day to support the mayor and oppose teachers? Why not just take a position on what you think is best for your children?

  • 118. kate  |  April 12, 2012 at 9:36 pm

    seems to me there are going to be agreements & disagreements between teachers and parents:
    As a parent I:
    Agree with the union – appropriate class size, reduction in corruption, path to end mayoral control, a/c if needed, facilities maint’d, responsible/reasonable budgets
    Disagree with the union – longer day, fuller longer year, some level of accountability at the principal /teacher level on assessments/testing, adequate/mandated recess, less than 30% pay raises (live in the real world), end to tenure/principal powers.

    Disagree with 108.

  • 119. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 13, 2012 at 5:52 am

    Just reading over these comments and seeing Stand4Children use different names as they cite their rhetoric…wow…they Juan Gonzelas come to a meeting and tell Spanish speaking people who didn’t know English that well that the ppl who were explaining abt the longer day/budget were lying.

    Stand 4 Children is a shameful organization…but don’t worry, some1 under an assumed name will get on here and say I’ wrong. Looking 4ward to that.

    I’m not fighting for ANY organization, but I am fighting for children, all children…6.5 is the IL average day, Rahm can’t fund a 5.75 day, how will he fund a 7hr day and 7.5 for hs. He won’t.

    Brizard was already asked abt funds yesterday from the State~there aren’t any. Can your school afford to fundraise?
    http://www.catalyst-chicago.org/notebook/2012/04/12/20028/lawmakers-question-cps-budget

    I hrd DisneyII is a gr8 school, I’m sure it is, but they fundraise and they were given extra money that won’t be there this year bc it’s not in the budget.

    So c’mon Stand 4 Children, refute that…

  • 120. Angie  |  April 13, 2012 at 7:44 am

    @119. SoxSideIrish4: “I’m not fighting for ANY organization, but I am fighting for children, all children…”

    Prove it.

  • 121. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 13, 2012 at 7:51 am

    Angie, I don’t understand, my kids are in the neighborhood school and I want a 6.5 hr well rounded fully funded day and that’s it!

  • 122. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 13, 2012 at 7:54 am

    And here’s 2 reason to fight for our kids abt funding…online learning and non certified teachers~this is where the extra 90 minutes came from that Rahm talked abt…this prg is now in more schools~education on the cheap!

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-08-23/news/ct-met-cps-extended-day-20100823_1_summer-school-school-day-online-initiatives

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/25/online-classes-and-nontea_n_694306.html

    Read the above articles…that’s what they don’t want you to know!

  • 123. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 13, 2012 at 8:13 am

    Angie, are you w/that shameful organization Stand4Children? You sound like it.

  • 124. Mommy  |  April 13, 2012 at 8:40 am

    SoxSideIrish, I find your accusatory tone and approach very counterproductive. This is a blog that has honest discussions and for the most part people respect each others opinions even when one may not agree. You are villifying people for their honest opinion and accusing them of being a part of stand. Take off the blinders please and recognize that not everyone agrees with you. Real parents with real kids in real cps schools do not agree with you. Sorry if that upsets you. I am not part of Stand and I personally think the 7 hour day is the right length for not only my kids but all the kids in CPS. There are many posts here indicating how it is working at schools currently, how schools are developing good plans now and while nothing will be perfect, we have to start somewhere. That somewhere does not have to be 6.5.

    As far as funding, I suggest you review posts 95 and 106. Schools that do not fundraise get much more in discretionary funds. Why don’t we all have music? It just does not make sense. While the system is not flush with cash, we can certainly use the cash we have much better. Parents need to get involved and look at their school based budgets and how funds are spent. This does not require fundraising and may result in better use of funds at the local school levels.

  • 125. junior  |  April 13, 2012 at 9:10 am

    @123
    Agree. How ironic what “SoxSideIrish4″ is accusing other long-time credible posters of doing, when his/her newly invented persona just shows up and starts spouting partisan and highly spun, unbalanced viewpoints and rehashing attacks on longer day/SFC/Rahm/CPS — gee, I wonder what interest group those viewpoints could be seen represent? I’m guessing the parent audience on this blog figured it out pretty quickly.

  • 126. Mayfair Dad  |  April 13, 2012 at 9:15 am

    @ 117. My position on the full day is absolutely, 100% what I think is right for my children. I see it work every day at my children’s school. I don’t have to guess if it might work — I know it works.

    The shorter longer day crowd loves to say “show me the evidence that proves a 7 hour day is effective” to which I reply “show me the evidence that proves the 5.45 hour day was adopted by CTU because it was in the best interest of our children, and not a negotiated union benefit for its members.”

    CTU’s shameful history of putting the financial interests of its members first while fewer than half of Chicago’s high school students get a diploma speaks volumes.

    I don’t need Stand for Children or Rahm Emanuel or anyone else to tell me what to think. I know what I know.

  • 127. HPMom  |  April 13, 2012 at 10:08 am

    @ 125 Mayfair Dad:

    Agreed!

  • 128. mom2  |  April 13, 2012 at 10:17 am

    I am not part of any organization, don’t even know what all these organizations are (“stand” “uno” “pure” or whatever they are called). I don’t work for or know Rahm. I agree with Mayfair Dad and Mommy and HPMom and others on many things. It sounds like longer days are working well for several schools and parents and teachers and I have still not heard anyone answer my question about funding and why those schools that must fund raise and those that just get those funds don’t end up with the same amount “things”.

  • 129. another CPS mom  |  April 13, 2012 at 11:51 am

    @ 125. Mayfair Dad | “CTU’s shameful history of putting the financial interests of its members first while fewer than half of Chicago’s high school students get a diploma speaks volumes.”

    Oh, please.

  • 130. WendyRYH  |  April 13, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    @Mayfair Dad – your kids are thriving at a magnet school that has many more positions than regular neighbhorhood schools. From looking at the website, you have staffing well beyond most. I am so tired of parents being accused of being a front for the CTU. I have been advocating for kids to get a day like your kids have for the past couple of years because all kids deserve that kind of curriculum not because I am trying to empower the teacher’s union. I know you want to protect what you have at D2 but please stop insulting me with that narrow refrain.

  • 131. WendyRYH  |  April 13, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    ps – I personally am fine with a 7hr day as long as there is a diverse and rich curriculum to go with it. I have met many kids and parents who have no gym, no art, no music, no nothing. a 7.5hr day with just core is not a full day. THat has been the message. It’s hard for people to see beyond their own backyard, though, and it gets old.

  • 132. HS Mom  |  April 13, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    @129 – well, I guess those schools that want the kind of day they have at Disney should have accepted the pioneer program like Disney did.

    I do agree – more schools should be like Disney. They have teachers/principal/parents all on board with the same goal to put the children first and work out the best way to support that. There is nothing stopping other schools from doing that. No one has answered Mom2 who points out that there is an equaliztion in school funding – schools either have parents that can afford to provide financial support or they are given additional funding for low income students. So, yes Wendy, good question why aren’t more schools like Disney?

    Glad to see that you are on board with 7 hours….thank you.

  • 133. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 13, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    @128~Until Rahm can our principal has the budget we don’t know what we will lose in terms of teachers/prgms. It’s all abt the budget. I want my kids to have a well planned day and not just core ontop of core subjects. And like my school, I stand firm w/6.5.

  • 134. WendyRYH  |  April 13, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Magnet schools (and selective enrollment schools) get positions for music, art, technology that neighbhorhood schools don’t get. Disney had those positions before they became “pioneers”. The pioneer money was a one-time offer, anyway, not sustainable, so not sure how taking that money would solve any long-term issue.

    I believe every school should have those positions as basic standards. Above the basic standards that every school should get, low-income schools often have extra costs – security, safety, tutoring, other school supports, etc. It costs a lot more to educate a child in poverty than a middle-income student. Studies vary and show somewhere between 25% and 100% more (yes, wide range). We often end up arguing about who gets what, but if everyone got the basic standards instead of being starved for resources and then funds were applied on top of that as needed, I don’t think we’d be bickering.

    Our per pupil spending in this district is not sufficient no matter how you slice it. Sure, some of us can work to fundrasie $300k next year instead of $225k, and some schools will get discretionary funds, and some schools will be in the middle and won’t have parents who can fundraise and won’t get the high-end of discretionary money, but no matter what, most schools won’t have what they need funding wise to have a really great day.

  • 135. CPS Dad To Be  |  April 13, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    Regarding funding of schools qualifiying for Title 1 funds. Here are some links for insight.

    http://www.educationnation.com/index.cfm?objectid=32551596-1C6F-11E1-8E80000C296BA163

    http://www.isbe.net/funding/html/nclb_funding.htm
    http://www.schooldigger.com/go/IL/schoolrank.aspx

    With the schooldigger link you can choose columts to see which schools get Title I funds and what % of the students qualify for free lunch.

    CPS has over 500 schools that qualify for 296 million of funds for Title I (from the second link). This means that on average each Title I school should be getting around 600k in additional funds. That amaount which is significantly more than some non-Title I fundraising schools raise can definately fund enrichment classes and other support for those schools and students.

    According to the first link it does not seem like Title I funds are being used effectively or even as intended. Is this a result of how CPS dsitributes the funds or how the school uses them? or both?
    At least with the schools that fundraise there is a lot more control and transparency of how the raised funds are used and the funds stay with the school. This does not seem to be the case with Title I funds.

    I’m not sure where to find how much each school is getting from Title I but it would be interesting to see how much as well as ask the school how the funds were used. Anyone know how to get this using FOIA? It would be great to create a spreadheet with such info and compare against other stats available to us such as scores, AYP, total staff and teachers, etc.

  • 136. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 13, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Agreed. Excellent comment Wendy..wished I could have phrased it so well. I wish all schools could have what they need bc a lot of schools just can’t do fundraising.

  • 137. mom2  |  April 13, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    @134 – What was the logic and reasoning behind only magnet and selective schools getting funding for art, music and technology? Just curious why those schools would get more than others.

  • 138. CPS Dad To Be  |  April 13, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    Magnets and magnet clusters have a core focus (Fine Arts, STEM, Language,etc) as a magnet. CPS funds the teachers needed for the core focus of the Magnet. So a fine arts magnet may have art and music but may not have technolofy funded. Additinal fundraising also happens there to get teachers for what CPS does not fund. Magnets and selective enrollment schools generally have parents that are more involved than many neighborhood schools so fundraising is easier in those cases since the parents are more heavily vested in their childs education. The downside is that these schools also have a lot of out of area parents so fundraising tents to be more distributed and involves wider neighborhood ranges than the typical neighborhood school.

    Not all selective enrollment elementart schools get positions for art, music, and technolofy. I believe the school needs a certain amount of students to get those. Many of the schools fundraise for the spots. The RGCs that are part of neighborhood schools usually get the additional funds due to student body size but they still do a lot of fundraising for other things.

  • 139. Mayfair Dad  |  April 13, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    @Wendy RYH: I admire and respect what you do. Your message and position is more inclusive and nuanced than many. We agree on much more than we disagree on. But in my opinion the full day is a win for CPS kids, and the correct battle is funding not length of day.

    When you march alongside teachers to protest against a longer school day, people might get the impression you are aligned with the teachers union. This is not a dig, just an observation.

    Years ago, as an LSC member of a neighborhood school with 85% poverty, a group of parents wanted to introduce art, music and other enrichment programs to the curriculum. We were motivated and willing to write grants, fundraise, do whatever was necessary. We applied for and received grant money from the Illinois Board of Education – the principal refused to accept the check because the tenured union teachers wouldn’t agree to facilitate the program.

    So we hired a new principal. This principal never stood a chance because she was a parent-pleaser and held teachers accountable. After ruling the roost for so long, the tenured union teachers would not embrace the leadership of a principal who actually listened to parents. One new teacher hired by this principal actually had the temerity to stay after school three nights a week to coordinate the Journalism Club which produced the first-ever student newspaper.

    Unfortunately, due to budget cuts, this young teacher was let go at the end of the school year. As she was carrying her personal effects to her car, one of the CTU bullies followed her out into the parking lot and spat on her for making the other teachers “look bad.”

    This is my personal experience with the CTU. Tenured teachers hiding behind their union contract, doing the bare minimum and intimidating any other teachers who were inspired to go the extra mile to teach the kids. Maybe the climate at this school was unusual, but based on the subpar performance of most CPS schools, I’m guessing probably not.

    To be fair, I have a real problem with all public employee unions, not just CTU. Less than 10% of the American workforce belongs to a union, yet 90% of this small fraction are all public employee unions, paid for by our tax dollars. This unholy alliance between politicians and unions subverts our body politic, and the massive union pension shortfall greatly compromises our state’s ability to fund education properly.

  • 140. mom2  |  April 13, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    I think we could all agree that funding the school day and the quality of the school day are important. It is the exact length of the day, the pay for teachers and things like that which are getting in the way of agreements.

  • 141. Chicago Mama  |  April 13, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    @WendyRYH /131 – You told Jay Levine on Tuesday that you personally thought “7 hours is probably too long for the primary grades.” http://chicago.cbslocal.com/video/6928263-mayor-scales-back-plan-for-longer-school-day/ What made you change your mind?

    I’m not really sure how one can make a determination that Disney II has more than most, or that we fundraise for it. As far as I can tell, Disney II has laid out strong priorities, including teaching staff and manageable class size, and it funds to those priorities, even as its budget contracts. I don’t think anyone can scan a staff list on a website and get an accurate and fair picture of what priorities and funding are at any individual school.
    http://www.scammonschool.com/AboutUs/Staff.pdf
    http://beldingelementary.com/staff/
    http://www.murphy.cps.k12.il.us/John_B._Murphy_Elementary_School/Contact_Us.html

  • 142. King Ph.d  |  April 13, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    @ Mayfair Dad, I understand your concern regarding the CTU. The fact that we had a day that was too short was a result of the CTU contract and CPS. It was the wrong thing for parents and children. It is a bit ironic that Rahm used the language to finagle a longer day in Pioneer Schools.

    Many have alleged that the group I have been involved with, 19th Ward Parents were working for the CTU, but it simply is not true. Wendy’s work at RYH was critical, and the fact that RYH existed allowed many different parent groups from many areas of the city to cross neighborhood, economic and traditional political lines. This happened quickly because RYH was already in place, and I think this was why Rahm moved from 7.5 hours. We worked together and became harder to ignore. I am sure Rahm is hoping we quit talking and go away after this concession.

    I have seen parents speak at the CPS board meetings, pleading to get a library for their child’s school. Imagine being a kid with less than stellar parents, in an unsafe neighborhood with no way to get a book to read. I don’t think a longer day is going to be of much help to this child. The least I can do is speak for these parents and say it is unacceptable to have a school without a library. We will all have to raise our voices for this kind of travesty to end.

    As for the CTU, I think Karen Lewis’s request for a 30% raise was absurd, but at the same time there are some basic things I think should be provided to employees. Health insurance and a pension come to mind. As I have said before, I would like to see the Teachers Pension Fund properly funded, and the corruption rooted out before money is allocated to teacher salaries. No raise seems right to me so we can get the fund stabilized.

    What I don’t like is the contracting out of city services, like garbage and teaching to places like Waste Mgt and AUSL. I want Chicago employees to have to live in Chicago. Otherwise the money leaves and it drags down the economy and housing values, concentrating the more low/no income households in the city. Who is left to pay taxes? Moreover, privatization and contracting out are a major source of corruption in the city since the Shakman decree. The money goes to fewer people (wealthy business people), that already have money. At least the old patronage system spread the graft out to working people, although they were not always working to hard!

  • 143. anonymouseteacher  |  April 13, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    Just fyi, per pupil funding via the state next year in CPS will be reduced by around $600 per kid.

  • 144. WendyRYH  |  April 13, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    @137 – I have no idea what the logic is but regular neighborhood schools get .5 position for art OR music if you are under 750 students and library OR technology. Magnets get most of these covered. Magnet clusters have lost a lot of funding over the past couple of years but some have a few extra positions. I am not saying magnets are overfunded, I’m saying every school should have these basic standards and most schools are underfunded and still have to fundraise to make up for the basics.

  • 145. cpsobsessed  |  April 13, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    It’s just such a weird system of inequity that’s hard to swallow or explain,

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 146. WendyRYH  |  April 13, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    @Mayfair Dad. We are fighting for classroom funding and are not taking any stand on teacher wages and benefits. We support our teachers, of course, and many of them are also parents and if we stand next to them to advocate for a quality, funded school day, I am not sure what kind of message that sends to anyone, but it doesn’t change our mission.

  • 147. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 13, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    I know that we are already @146~me, but if you have a chance plz read #122~that’s where Rahm got the 90 minutes, larger classes, online learning.

  • 148. LastYrMe  |  April 13, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    139 mayfair dad … thanks for all your insight. You make sense. Have a great weekend.

  • 149. Angie  |  April 13, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    @141. King Ph.d: “What I don’t like is the contracting out of city services, like garbage and teaching to places like Waste Mgt and AUSL. I want Chicago employees to have to live in Chicago. Otherwise the money leaves and it drags down the economy and housing values, concentrating the more low/no income households in the city. Who is left to pay taxes? Moreover, privatization and contracting out are a major source of corruption in the city since the Shakman decree. The money goes to fewer people (wealthy business people), that already have money. At least the old patronage system spread the graft out to working people, although they were not always working to hard! ”

    As a taxpayer, I would like to have these and other city services performed efficiently, and for a reasonable price. If that means hiring a private company over a union, so be it. Besides, wealthy business people don’t do everything themselves, they also hire working people to do the job.

    Do the math. If the union company charges $10,000 to collect the same amount of garbage that private company can do for $7,000, the difference comes straight from the residents’ pockets, and for what? Why are we expected to subsidize things like bad business practices and fraudulent overtime?

  • 150. King Ph.d.  |  April 13, 2012 at 10:47 pm

    @ Angie – I would like it cheaper too, but I am not sure garbage collection is much cheaper being done by Waste Management. (They do the recycling in Beverly and Streets and San do garbage). I believe their drivers are teamsters with union pay and benefits. They just don’t have to live in Chicago so the cash flow leaves the city. The hard part to know is what the actual cost of the contract compared to the city workers. The numbers were never publicized to my knowledge.

    Additionally, recycling has always involved a subcontractor, even when the city picked it up, Waste Mgt. did the sorting and selling. I never heard what the profit margin was on the operation, given that at least some of the material recovered was sold for cash.

    There are other complex manpower issues that come into play as well. One of the reasons the city can get plows on the street in large numbers is because garbage trucks are fitted with plows. It is my understanding that there a fewer workers to plow now and that overtime costs associated with snow removal will be higher. I have only heard this, not seen the data.

    The other aspect of this is that the garbage business, just like the parking business has been notoriously shady in the past. That is the problem with these contracts. If they went out to bid in a public process overseen by a major accounting firm I might be more comfortable, but the Milk provider for CPS, Chartwells for CPS food service, the Parking Meter Deal, Hired Trucks have all had problems with corruption.

    It seems like trading undue union influence versus undue corporate influence is like choosing from a list of horribles.

    There may be ways to write contracts for work done by private businesses for municipalities that could curb the shady deals. Perhaps a provision that contractors pay very large fees should any undue influence, bribes, political contributions, or gift giving be found. If these were high enough that that contract ends up running at a loss it might persuade businesses to be more honest.

    The problem is the politicians don’t readily disclose these deals and the data to evaluate them in advance. I don’t think the alderman have even seen the terms of the Infrastructure Trust. This info should be out there so we can see if the Trust will be good for the city compared to raising taxes to sell bonds. Given Rahm’s refusal to disclose the terms of the Trust contract to the media, my guess is the Trust is a ripoff.

  • 151. LR  |  April 13, 2012 at 11:16 pm

    You don’t have to have a 7 hour day to have a “full” day. I have said this a million times, I know, but my daughter’s CPS has a 6.5 hour day and has a very full day (PE, art, music, Chinese, ASL, Civics, computer, library). We also have 2 recesses and lunch. And, yes, I realize we are lucky. All kids should have what we have. But, why can’t it be done in 6.5 hours?

    I echo the sentiment that I don’t really care if what I think is right puts me “on the same side” as the CTU. Is the idea of 30% raises ridiculous? Of course. But, if my boss added 1 hour to every day and took away 10 of my vacation days and gave me only a very small raise, yeah, I’d be outraged. Wouldn’t we all?

    @86 (Think Positive): If we are complacent and just accept that things like art and music can be done “on the cheap” I fear the funding will go away forever (or in the schools that don’t have funding, it will never materialize). I agree with RYH’s position that we should be pushing to include these things as part of a well-rounded day. They are important. Not every student is going to “shine” at reading and math. But, they should have the opportunity to be a star at art, or PE, or music or foreign language, or computer, or whatever makes them want to come to school every day. As wonderful as it is that the parent club purchased several guitars, I don’t like the idea of calling this “music class.” There is value in having expertise in music, art, PE, technology, etc. in our schools and I think we ought to fight for it, particularly since Rahm is giving us the “gift of time.”

  • 152. anonymous  |  April 14, 2012 at 7:43 am

    Wendy, I am not in favor of a standard 7-hour day when funding inequities across the district mean the day won’t be the same quality at every schoo.

    Imho, what money there is in this time of annual deficits should go to help the disadvantaged kids throughout the system.

    For the schools where the scores are good, the parents have been surveyed and the majority don’t want a 7-hour — mainly unfunded — day, the best thing to do is to leave them out of it.

  • 153. Mommy  |  April 14, 2012 at 8:11 am

    @136– Great information data and links. There is something that is not right about how the discretionary funds are used. This has nothing to do with @135 saying magnets get some positions, etc. Schools with no magnet or se status still have the gap with free and reduced getting $500/600k while other schools raise money to get to a similar level (and have no magnet or se status). I agree that it is confusing, but it is part of the funding problem and the funding question.

  • 154. Mommy  |  April 14, 2012 at 8:18 am

    @150 Guilty as charged, I do think positive. From personal experience, the music is great even though it is not a dedicated music teacher. It is a solid curriculum, taught by teachers. In another situation, there was a certified music teacher that sucked and was tenured and could not be fired. Personally, the former is much better for the kids. Besides that, you missed my point. My point is that there is a lot to fix and it is not going to happen overnight. What is wrong with sharing creative solutions to integrate these great things into the curriculum?

    “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good!”

  • 155. Mayfair Dad  |  April 14, 2012 at 8:36 am

    @ 141: I agree with many of your points. I think many Illinois and Chicago citizens know in their hearts more tax revenue is required to fund education properly. But not in this sleazy environment of graft and corruption. Politicians buying votes through sweetheart deals with the public employee unions is a big problem. Now our state is bankrupt and taxpayers are on the hook for these huge pension shortfalls. Privatization of services also creates/sustains jobs, of course someone will get rich (like the guy who sells milk to CPS) but maybe with greater oversight and transparency these manipulations can be curtailed. Can it really be worse than the wasteful goldbricking we have now?

    Look into your crystal ball. A giant icicle falls off the top floor the county building, impaling Mike Madigan. Springfield goes into an emergency session and a major tax package miraculously gets passed. What gets fixed first, Chicago’s schools or the teacher’s pension fund?

  • 156. Wendy  |  April 14, 2012 at 8:46 am

    @151- I said I was okay with it as long as all kids have a diverse and rich curriculum. CPS hasn’t provided any information on how they will make this happen and so I am very curious to see how school budgets turn out given that they claim to have a $600million deficit.

  • 157. Angie  |  April 14, 2012 at 10:22 am

    @150. LR : “But, if my boss added 1 hour to every day and took away 10 of my vacation days and gave me only a very small raise, yeah, I’d be outraged. Wouldn’t we all?”

    The standard workweek in the private sector is 40 hours. What if your boss said: “LR, I have noticed that for the past several years, you have been working 35 hours weeks and the results of your work are unsatisfactory. From now on, I would like you to work for as long as the other employees in your position, and your performance evaluation and future raises are going to depend on the results of your work.”

    This may make you upset, but would it really be so unfair?

    As for taking away 10 days of your vacation, yes, if your boss reduced the typical 2-4 weeks the private sector workers get, it would sting. However, taking it away from the 15 weeks of school breaks the teachers negotiated themselves is not nearly comparable to that.

  • 158. HS Mom  |  April 14, 2012 at 10:45 am

    Wendy – When RYH brought the issue of allocation of TIF funds and “recess for all” to the forefront they were speaking for everyone – thankfully. Coming out against the longer day does not make RYH the advocate for everyone. Interesting, however, that the longer day is finally what will get recess for everyone.

    @138 is correct about magnet funding. Our language magnet did not have or focus much in the way of art/music. In “flush” times kids had art or music once a week with those classes alternating every other quarter (art and music for 1/2 year once a week). With budget cuts, art was on the chopping block. That was OK with me because these classes were really more about a break in the day. If we wanted art/music education we would have tried to get into a fine arts program or pursue it privately. We had a 6.5 hour day with recess and lunch in the middle of the day and language the 4 days that had no art/music. Did the kids do well, yes. Could they have done better, yes. There was not enough time in the day to focus on excelling at everything. Those school rankings only measure math and reading. I am finding in HS that the science has been seriously lacking and, while they did quite a bit of writing, little or no analytical writing. The need for more time is there and what that time should consist of will vary from school to school. It’s unfair to say that kids that can’t read or do math should spend more time on art so that they have a more “well rounded” day. There are creative ways to teach core subjects so that kids are not drilled for hours.

    The dilemma, whether you want 6.5, 7 or 7.5 hours is that there is going to be general disagreement over how that time is spent. As someone above says you need to trust your school to develop an appropriate plan. Unfortunately, not all schools can be trusted to decide what’s right for kids as proven by no recess.

    @151 “I am not in favor of a standard 7-hour day when funding inequities across the district mean the day won’t be the same quality at every schoo”

    This is a funny comment considering that the objection to the 7.5 hour day was that CPS was trying to take a “one size fits all” approach”. Everyone wanted to be able to do their own thing.

  • 159. cpsobsessed  |  April 14, 2012 at 10:52 am

    @HS Mom – I don’t think any groups has or can claim to speak for “all parents.”
    Some people in the city probably think that TIF$ should be used for other purposes. Some parents may feel that recess isn’t a priority when their school’s test scores are crap. There will never be anything we ALL agree on as far as I have seen….

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 160. anonymous  |  April 14, 2012 at 11:05 am

    We might not even all agree on recess — ; ).

    My kids have had 45 min for lunch and recess all along. To do that, the school added 15 min to the 5:45 min day. It cost nothing, but the facilities are excellent, and that made it all workable and the kids happy.

    Schools are in different states of repair, and kids have different needs. The funding issue is where the rubber meets the road. What gets paid for and does the school get to have a say?

  • 161. LR  |  April 14, 2012 at 11:32 am

    @156: Most teachers do work 40 hours per week and then some. Just because they are not physically in the classroom with kids does not mean they are not working. And all that stuff they do outside the classroom is important and does not just magically disappear with a longer day.

    As far as days off/vacation days go, I don’t have a problem with the status quo, but I don’t think the 10 days is as big a sticking point. I could be wrong, but I think it is the fact that all of this is coming down at once that makes it so unpalatable. There must be some strategic reason for doing it all at once. I sense they (Rahm/Brizard) are using a “door in the face” technique (ask the teachers for more than you want, knowing you won’t get everything you ask for, but you won’t come up empty-handed either).

    @150: I was more commenting on your original post, the tone of which seemed to be let’s just stop whining about no funding and take matters into our own hands. Sorry if I read that wrong. You say, “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” But, that doesn’t mean we should stop fighting for what is right and I believe CPS should fund these subjects (art, music, PE, technology, etc.). Right now they are treated as optional, some kids get them, some kids don’t…the ones that do often have more affluent/involved/privileged populations. Every kid should have opportunities for self-discovery in these areas. It is essential. That change needs to happen at a higher level than each individual school.

  • 162. Jen K  |  April 14, 2012 at 11:59 am

    @150 – regarding taking away 10 ” vacation days”: I thought most of those days are the monthly Professional Development Days where the teachers were at the school, not on vacation.

  • 163. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 14, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    @160 LR~you are correct, every school should be provided funding for art, music, pe~and I also believe schools should have more autonomy…bc each school’s community and needs are different.

  • 164. Angie  |  April 14, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    @160. “Most teachers do work 40 hours per week and then some. Just because they are not physically in the classroom with kids does not mean they are not working. ”

    If that’s true, then why do they so vehemently oppose the requirement to be in school for 7 hours and 40 minutes per day?

  • 165. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 14, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    If you want to see what a 7.5 hr day looks like~plz read #122. That’s it!There will be recess, but just pe, music, art once a week, large classes, non certified teachers and kids will be on computers w/non certified teachers.

    Please go up and read #122

  • 166. anonymouseteacher  |  April 14, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    @163, because then they’ll have 7 hours and 40 minutes per day ON TOP of the additional 20-30 hours they are ALREADY putting in each week. The time ON TOP of “with kids” time will grow, not be reduced. If teaching time increases from 30-35 hours per week to nearly 40 hours of teaching time each week, then all that extra time that parents don’t see with their eyes will also increase. It isn’t a hard concept to understand.

  • 167. Angie  |  April 14, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    @164. SoxSideIrish4: I have read all those preposterous CTU claims, but I have yet to see any facts that support them.

    Perhaps the parents from pioneer schools can tell us how many of their kids’ teachers have been replaced by the computer?

  • 168. Angie  |  April 14, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    @165. anonymouseteacher :

    “@163 because then they’ll have 7 hours and 40 minutes per day ON TOP of the additional 20-30 hours they are ALREADY putting in each week. The time ON TOP of “with kids” time will grow, not be reduced. If teaching time increases from 30-35 hours per week to nearly 40 hours of teaching time each week, then all that extra time that parents don’t see with their eyes will also increase. It isn’t a hard concept to understand.”

    Please explain to me how your math works.

    From the press release at the top of this thread, for elementary schools:

    “Students will receive 6 hours of instruction and 45 minutes for recess and lunch.”

    That is 30 hours of the teaching time in front of the kids, not 35 or 40.

    “•Elementary teachers will have almost two additional hours of prep time each week.
    •Elementary teachers will have self-directed prep time in the mornings, as well as additional prep time throughout the day to meet with parents informally, prepare for their lessons and supervise students who arrive at school early.
    •Both elementary and high school teachers will receive an average of 75 minutes for professional development each week..”

    So some of the additional weekly prep work you claim to be doing will now have to be done in school. What is the problem with that?

  • 169. anonymouseteacher  |  April 14, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    Here’s an example for the math challenged.
    Teachers put in at least an hour of work on top of every hour they instruct. I have students for 5.75 hours per day. Around 4.5 of those are instructional time. That means I NEVER have less than a 45 hour week. Usually it is more than that, because I kill myself to be excellent.
    If I have an additional 90 minutes of instructional time, my work week will never be less than a 60 hour work week, and me being me, means I will usually have a 70+ hour work week.
    I became a mother to be a mother. I am not going to abandon my children for my job. If other people choose to do that or have to do that, that is their choice. I know a few moms who have jobs that require those kinds of hours and they are free to make their own choices. I won’t do it. I have many options available to me, including tutoring @ $75 an hour or private program teaching or working for the university I teach at part time. CPS might want to keep me though. 20+ of my ESL, high need, poverty kids are reading at a first-third grade level already and we still have ten weeks left of school. Its up to them, though. CPS doesn’t have the option of hiring the best people all the time because it doesn’t pay or provide competitive working conditions with the suburban schools. They get lucky when they do happen to land some of the best. But unlike CPS, I have real options and will choose to exercise those options if I am not presented with a good offer. Let some single, no children 22 year old with no experience get my position and they can burn through her until she has her own kids and quits.

  • 170. anonymouseteacher  |  April 14, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    I have no problem working through my preps. I have always done that. Unlike some people, I can’t get onto blogs to post during the day. There isn’t time for that, because, me, I am actually working the entire time.
    Did you know they want us to come in on weekends now to have meetings and PD? Yep.
    The prep time or self directed time they are “giving us” in the mornings, we ALREADY have. And as I said, I already come in and stay WAY longer than required.
    I was doing math based on the 5.45 minute day versus the 7.5 hour day. Now they are saying 7 hours. So, that means 6 hours of instruction. 6×5=30. 30 hours instructing + 30 hours planning and grading + my “I must be the best” 10-20 additional hours = 70-80 hours next year. Nope. Not going to do it.

  • 171. anonymouseteacher  |  April 14, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    Oh and did you see the part about supervising kids who arrive at school early? Uh, not going to happen. Parents are the parents and I am not daycare.

  • 172. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 14, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    @166 Angie~may be you should go back and read @122~that wasn’t the ctu claiming larger classes/non certified teachers it was CPS. This has already been implemented and has grown. CPS sees this as a budget fix. This is happening where poverty is most prevalent. I don’t think any child should have a teacher replaced by a not teacher/computer. Every child deserves face to face time. Sometimes that’s the only nurturing they get.

    And while none of the 13 pioneer schools have been replaced they are NOT happy http://www.concernedpioneerparents.com/

  • 173. anonymouseteacher  |  April 14, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    And, now I am just pissed, but fwiw, teachers at my school all met before our meetings yesterday. We decided if the longer day is enacted without appropriate additional pay, none of us will:
    teach after school (they’ll cancel all the free after school stuff)
    teach clubs
    do yearbook, sports, anything
    answer emails at night
    attend IEP meetings during OUR prep time. They’ll have to pay a sub to relieve us during our instructional time so we can attend
    be on the LSC
    be on the PAC, BAC or ILT
    do one thing outside of our own classrooms
    no more open houses, tours, nothing other than report card pickup
    no more meeting with parents outside the time we are required to clock in, parents can take the day off work or go in late and meet with us either between 7:30-8 or during our prep time
    no more writing letters of recommendation for principal discretion to get into SEHS and our high school teacher friends won’t be writing letters of recommendation for college
    Nothing. People want to see teachers work a 40 hour week? Fine. Wait til they see what that actually means.
    Oh, and we are all taking home ALL the materials we have purchased with our own money. So, in my classroom at least, that means no more leveled readers for kids and 90% of our class library, all our games, our calendar materials, our blocks, one of the rugs, and more. If parents and the BOE want kids to have appropriate materials THEY can purchase them. My room, will be empty other than some tables and chairs.

  • 174. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 14, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    @172~I think it may come to that…I hope it doesn’t, but if you aren’t being paid for your work, you must not work. I wouldn’t expect to work more and not be paid, why should a teacher. The teachers I know are so wonderful. My kids have never not had a gr8 teacher who didn’t want them to thrive. It’s all Rahm & CPS fault for not listening to reason. Try not to be 2 upset…by the end of summer a lot of things will change.

  • 175. HS Mom  |  April 14, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    @158 CPSO – point taken, you always take a very level headed approach. I do find it a bit of a stretch that parents would oppose recess if their schools test scores were crap especially if it meant ending the day early. I suppose that there are parents who will take any stance. To this I reiterate my second point in my post that in general, there will be variable opinions on the optimal use of school time but the need exists for standardization of basic common goals and approaches. All the “noise” can get in the way of accomplishing this.

    When individuals and groups make statements that “I’m for a full day as long as it is funded” knowing full well that funding does not exist – they stand in the way of progress. They don’t offer solutions other than “go find the money”. I have seen many good examples listed here of schools that are working to make progress with little or no funding.

    @159 – Not in favor of recess!! Come on. Having personally attended CPS “back in the day” in one of those buildings that was old even then, we played everyday in the paved parking lot – jump rope, hop scotch, Chinese jump rope… I see a poster mention that their school blocks off the street. How can you even consider that recess should not be an option for some?

  • 176. cps alum  |  April 14, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    @172– you are 100% correct. I tired of all the complaints from people who have absolutely NO CLUE about the realities of teaching and the OUTSIDE of school hours that teachers put in every day. Do they really think it takes 40 minutes of prep time to prep and grade for a 5 hours of instruction? Their ignorance is obvious to anyone who spent 1 week in a classsroom.

  • 177. Angie  |  April 14, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    @172. anonymouseteacher : If you think that this would be in the best interest of the children the teachers and CTU pretend to care about, go right ahead. Not that I ever believed that this fight was about anything other than paychecks, but it’s nice to have a confirmation from the source.

    Oh, and as far as your needing an hour of prep for every hour of teaching, maybe you should listen to Karen Lewis and work smarter, not harder? I wonder if that childless 22 year old newbie I’m supposed to be scared about will be able to accomplish that.

  • 178. CmonNow  |  April 14, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    all the complaining cps teachers can quit. there are plenty of out of work + new grads for your jobs. seriously.

  • 179. anonymouseteacher  |  April 14, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    @176, yes, it would be in the best interest of MY children to see their mother. And ultimately, it is them I care about above all others.
    And yes, of course, you must be right. I am putting in 60+ hours every single week and spending $2500 of my own money for my classroom because all I care about is the money. Of course. How stupid of me not to have realized this. Thank you for informing me of my intentions.
    And 177, seriously, I am so close to writing up my resignation along with the other 4000+ teachers and 150 principals who are smart enough to get out.

  • 180. King Ph.d.  |  April 14, 2012 at 3:51 pm

    Angie. It is certainly about paychecks for some. As a parent of a kid in CPS, and a citizen of Chicago it is about the following:
    1) The current day is too short. Allowing teachers to move lunch to the end of the day as provided for in the CPS contract deprived children from having recess.
    2) The correct length of day, based on what is developmentally appropriate for elementary school children and what almost all schools in the nation are doing is around 6.5 hours. This number can increase as children move from elementary to middle school and high school.
    3) CPS through poor policy, lack of funding and god knows what else have schools without adequte music, art, gym and recess.
    4) Many schools lack libraries, cafeterias and gymnasiums.
    5) The operating budget is in the red. The pension is underfunded. CPS appears to lack the money for staffing a properly run 6.5 hour school day while meeting our obligations to fund the pension fund.

    From my perspective the system seems to prioritize the following stakeholders in in this order:
    1) Private interests that stand to make money from contracts providing goods and services to CPS, including privately operated charter schools.
    2) The political class including the Mayor, Aldermen, and special interest groups like Stand for Children, as well as entrenched bureaucrats that work at CPS and its regional offices.
    3) The Chicago Teachers Union
    4) Parents
    5) Children

    Maybe I could switch 1 and 2, but you get the idea.

    I would like to see this change.

  • 181. CPScanImprove!  |  April 14, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    178 – The principals and teachers who leave at the end of this school year are the ones with the years for a pension. We all know that. The teachers who will stay are the ones who are already doing a good job (and don’t complain all day . . .) If your job is sooooooo dreadful, go ahead a leave. I would like to see you work in the private sector.

  • 182. Mom  |  April 14, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    It is really sad to see post #172. The idea that teachers would take out their anger on the one group who has the least say in the matter is, to me, sad and unconscionable. In fact, perhaps the definition of “unprofessional.” Sounds like blackmail to me. You probably won’t get much support with those tactics. Parents will most likely be really open to “door number two” (hiring new teachers) if that comes to pass.

  • 183. soxsideirish4  |  April 14, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    It seems like Stand 4Children are here commenting under dif names. Dont worry they are afraid of the ‘noise’ bc their kickoff 2day didnt go well. We’ll win!

  • 184. soxsideirish4  |  April 14, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    @172~feel free to vent…it’s just that Stand4Children are trying 2 make other parents feel as if they have no say…is ridiculous! I dont know any parents that want teachers 2 leave, but I know a lot that want Stand4Children out of CPS. STAND is just so upset bc their kickoff was not what they had hoped for 2day. They know that more parents and parent groups are joining to stop them and the 7hr day and want to know abt the budget.

  • 185. mom2  |  April 14, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    I have no idea what or who is Stand4Children or what kick of day they had. I just know that arguing over 30 minutes (6.5 vs. 7) is driving me crazy. Many of the posters here that you keep saying are from Stand4Children have been on here for years and I highly doubt that they are part of any group besides CPS parents and maybe the PTA or PTSO.

  • 186. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 14, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    FYI~I’ve been on here for 4 yrs.This thread is abt the 7hr day~I’m commenting on that. If you choose not to, don’t

  • 187. Diane  |  April 14, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    @172…don’t let this blog get you upset. I think most/ many of the posters here are not parents of the children you teach. I have found this forum as a great source of information about schools, and, unfortunately, about how some parents view the professionals they entrust their children to every day. Most people here could not fathom what a classroom outside of their own school actually looks like. They cannot imagine roaches crawling on the floors, children filthy and hungry or freezing classrooms. They could not imagine what it’s like when a mother comes to report card pickup drunk and starts to beat her child. They couldn’t imagine their childrens’ classrooms without books or pencils. I’d love to see the reaction of the group of fundraising parents at a particular school see how much the principal spent of discretionary funds because parents are now funding necessities. Again, parents have NO idea. How do you feel about a two year old million dollar curriculum being scrapped because the adminstration changed and they have their own vision? Stacks of materials sit unused because a new area officer has a new idea. It sickens me to be able to go on and on. Teachers see this waste EVERY day. And yes, I have been a very successful member of corporate America, and I’ll tell you this: not one day at my corporate job did I have to bring my own toilet paper or have someone tell me to go fuck myself, as I have experienced as a teacher in CPS.

    I understand that parents are just sick and tired of not having schools for their kids, however, their anger is directed at the wrong people.

    As far as having a 22 year old newbie take teach my kids? No. If that’s what you want for your children, great. I want my children to be educated by experienced, dedicated professionals. I am proud to say that I am a member of a suburban community and school board that supports this concept. We work with faculty and adminstration to ensure all parties have a voice. Why wouldn’t I want the teacher of my son to make a good salary? Why would I criticize her desire to make more money? I don’t criticize my attorney for raising his fees. I don’t blog about the cost my accountant just charged me to do taxes. I pay for professionals and I respect my childrens’ teachers as professionals. I strongly encourage CPS parents to think about supporting teachers as professionals. The parents who work along side the teachers and admin at your schools know how important this is. If you can’t think of the big picture (all of CPS) think about the teachers at your own schools They need you and your support to make your schools better. Criticizing them for wanting to get paid a fair wage for what they do for your children day after day is not fair and will not create better schools.

  • 188. anonymouseteacher  |  April 14, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    Thanks CPSalum and 186. When I found out on Friday that the BOE wants to reduce everyone’s pay to a starting teacher’s salary, regardless of experience or education, this put me over the edge. That means a 20K reduction in pay for me. On top of much longer hours.
    I just spoke to my supervisor at the university I teach at over the summer and she is looking into the possibility of creating a position for me. Her advice to me was to get out of CPS and to get my children out as fast as I possibly could.

  • 189. Mom  |  April 14, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    anonymouseteacher, please don’t let the door hit you in the ass

  • 190. junior  |  April 14, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    185.SoxSideIrish4 said
    “FYI~I’ve been on here for 4 yrs.”

    Don’t recognize you. Could you perhaps point us to some of your posts from over the years?

  • 191. junior  |  April 14, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    Good discussion of teacher compensation in Chicago…

    http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20120407/ISSUE05/304079978/todays-story-problem-is-on-teacher-pay

  • 192. junior  |  April 14, 2012 at 9:12 pm

    @172 anonymouseteacher

    Do you think that teachers in other cities who already work a longer day (many for less pay) don’t put in extra hours and don’t do many of the things you list?

  • 193. NotKiddin  |  April 14, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    186 Diane – You are barking up the wrong tree. We as parents, want the best for our kids, especially at school. Yes, I would take a new 22 yr old teacher way before some of the “old” CPS lazy, sluggish, don’t care teachers collecting a check and waiting for a pension. I fully understand the horrors of some CPS schools, but I’m talking about the slugs in tier 4 supposed good schools. Not all the teachers are bad — but there are quite a few at most CPS schools.
    187 – With your attitude, you need to teach at a college or not at all. Don’t pretend to care about the kids, your tone says it all.

  • 194. AnonMom  |  April 14, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    OT- I apologize, but had a question. Was something budget-wise announced on Friday? Reading between the lines, I get the sense something was communicated at the PD day on Friday.

  • 195. Mom  |  April 14, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    Can I just say the picture of Pharoh is hilarious?!

    Also, I completely disagree with teachers who would spite the children because they are unhappy with their compensation. Move/change jobs rather than compromise your professional values! This choice actually happened to me once, and I quit and took a new job (albeit, this was not in education) rather than succumb to union BS.

    BTW, I have never been on any Stand for Children, Raise your Hand, etc. website. I don’t even know their acronyms. Plus, I don’t care what they are saying, because I am intelligent enough to form my own opinions. AND I am a parent who has posted on here for several years, not any sort of “plant.”

    This is looking like it will be a really sad situation come Fall in light of all the angst. I am sad for Chicago’s kids. I do, completely, care what happens to them. (Not so much about the rest of us.)

  • 196. WendyRYH  |  April 14, 2012 at 10:01 pm

    @HSmom – RYH never picked an exact time that we felt was right but we are certainly not against “a longer day”. We pushed for a longer day last year. Interestingly, when we went to the board of ed they told us any extension for recess or lunch would have to be at no cost because they were broke.

    When we polled our members earlier in this year, around 80% wanted a day between 6.5-7hrs. We communicated this as coming from our members, never said we were speaking for every parent in Chicago.

    In working with 16 community and parent groups over the past three months from all parts of the city, I have found there is no consensus on the length of the day but there is a strong concern about quality additions being added to the day no matter the length. So we have been trying to advocate for more arts, PE, language, early childhood ed, etc. This to me is much more important that the length of the day on it’s own but it often doesn’t get covered in the press.

    We also would like to have a district that actually engages real stakeholders when coming up with policies that impact our kids. CPS has failed at this pretty miserably and we want to help them come up with some system to engage parents, not just RYH parents, all parents.

  • 197. anonymous  |  April 15, 2012 at 3:28 am

    It’s a budget fix and an opportunity for profit. It’s not about what is best for the children, although that is his mantra now.

    Emanuel is pushing out teachers before they can qualify for a full pension. Families will suffer, and a few neighborhoods, too, but Emanuel isn’t concerned. Neither are his billionaire backers. It’s why they hired him in the first place. They don’t want any of their tax dollars to go to any public sector pensions. The people who make the city work. Screw them.

    What affect will this have on the city? Emanuel could care less. He’s got his.

    I’m sick of the lie — that it’s teacher quality that is behind low test scores — when everyone knows how disadvantaged thousands of our kids are and how inequitable funded the schools are.

    The length of day is a smokescreen for Emanuel.

  • 198. anonymous  |  April 15, 2012 at 3:36 am

    178 — how many are getting out – 4,000 teachers and 150 principals?

  • 199. cpsobsessed  |  April 15, 2012 at 7:53 am

    Do we actually know for certain the Stand for Children advocated for the 7.5 day? We know they cleared the path past the super short day which used to be unchangeable. Was 7.5 their idea or Rahms?

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 200. anonymouseteacher  |  April 15, 2012 at 8:12 am

    @197, yes, about that many.
    @193, yes, huge changes to pay structure that the papers are not reporting.
    @191, NONE of those cities are proposing lowering teacher salaries down to ONE salary. The BOE is proposing lowering every single teacher down to a starting salary. (as in 45K, even if you are currently making 85K). They are taking away $$ for advanced degrees, money for years experience, all of it. They are proposing merit pay. Which I’d be fine with, if they gave me what I merit. My students’ scores are through the roof. (and they were LOW when they entered) My evaluations are excellent. I do every freaking thing possible in terms of clubs, etc. My students see me more than my family does. If they reduce me to 45K per year and then give me 20K in merit pay that I deserve based on my performance, no problem. But we all know CPS will give out maybe 3-5K in “merit” pay and expect us to be grateful for it. Uh, no.
    s

  • 201. anonymouseteacher  |  April 15, 2012 at 8:17 am

    @190, I read that article. No problem. The day the BOE agrees to pay for every single thing in my classroom that I need and I can stop paying $200-300 each month to supply it, I’ll agree to a pay freeze. And if you think teachers are in the same category as your average city worker sitting at a desk all day, you’re nuts.
    I am not against a tiny raise for a huge increase in working time. I am against a HUGE reduction (as in 20-25K) in pay while at the same time a large increase in work time. This is what is being proposed. I cannot pay my mortgage on 45K a year and will be forced to move. I can’t hardly even pay rent on that for my family of four. Yet this is what they are proposing. Call the union. Find out the facts.

  • 202. Angie  |  April 15, 2012 at 8:57 am

    @199. anonymouseteacher: “The BOE is proposing lowering every single teacher down to a starting salary. (as in 45K, even if you are currently making 85K). They are taking away $$ for advanced degrees, money for years experience, all of it. ”

    Can you link to the source of this?

  • 203. anonymouseteacher  |  April 15, 2012 at 9:12 am

    It was told to us verbally at our union meeting on Friday morning. Our principal also told us, verbally, at our PD, that prep time will NOT be 60 minutes per day, but 45 per day, and the other 15 minutes would be “time banked” and we’d have to either stay after school every other week for 2.5 hours or come in on Saturdays to do it. I will see if I can get something in writing.

  • 204. WendyRYH  |  April 15, 2012 at 9:23 am

    @CPSO- I was at the Stand event yesterday and they said they will work to make sure we have a 7.5 hour day in the next few years. I have no idea who came up with it originally, but CPS’ new FACE director Phil Hampton told the crowd CPS does want a 7.5 hour day and their goal is to implement it in a few years, too. So for those who are disappointed and think a 7.5 hr day is a magic bullet you might be in luck. Perhaps they will implement it in 2014 when we have a billion dollar deficit. Who knows.

  • 205. cpsobsessed  |  April 15, 2012 at 9:25 am

    Thanks Wendy. Are they pushing for the same in other cities too?

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 206. Angie  |  April 15, 2012 at 10:28 am

    @202. anonymouseteacher: “It was told to us verbally at our union meeting on Friday morning.”

    Oh, that. I’ll wait for the confirmation from a credible source before believeng this, thankyouverymuch. Although, it sounds like their tactics worked by pushing the teachers to take their anger out on the innocent children. Good going, CTU!

  • 207. Mom  |  April 15, 2012 at 11:04 am

    anoymousteacher’s persona is so stereotypical “pro-CTU-screw-the-kids” it’s like she’s a creation of union busters to stir up parents. Can someone like anonymouseteacher really be out there working with our kids?

  • 208. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 15, 2012 at 11:22 am

    @198 cpsobsessed~ this is what STand4Children stands for~this is their CEO~They pushed through sb7 so we would have a longer day/yr:

  • 209. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 15, 2012 at 11:23 am

    The above is how stand stood for business that rob public education.

  • 210. LR  |  April 15, 2012 at 11:30 am

    So, I guess I should hang on to my no 7.5 hour day sign? : )

    Although I know there are some very good young teachers out there (my daughter has one this year), a massive change changeover all at one time won’t happen without consequences. Furthermore, if I were a new teacher and you told me we pay $45K, and then you will only get merit-based bonuses, and we decide what those bonuses are, I think I would say thanks, but no thanks.

    Personally, I think this is what CPS ought to do about teacher compensation: 1.) I think they should pay teachers more. So, if the starting salary is $45K, make it $65K. 2.) At the same time, get rid of pensions and go to 401K’s. I think it will save them money and at the same time, they will still be able to attract and retain talented teachers.

  • 211. LR  |  April 15, 2012 at 11:34 am

    @Mom: I am a CPS parent and have found anonymous teachers’ posts to be very valuable. Yes, she’s welcome to work with my kids.

  • 212. LR  |  April 15, 2012 at 11:45 am

    Also, I am obviously not a CTU cheerleader as I’m sure my idea of getting rid of pensions would not be a popular one with them. I just respect that the same person who disagrees with me might also be a good teacher and good for my children.

  • 213. anonymouseteacher  |  April 15, 2012 at 11:54 am

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-01/news/ct-met-cps-teacher-aftermath-20120401_1_jesse-sharkey-cps-teacher-evaluations
    Here is an article in the Trib where they discuss removing pay for level of education and years of experience.
    Fwiw, LR, I agree with removing pensions. I think it would save the city a lot of money. I agree with it too, because right now, 9% of my salary (not the city’s contribution, but my contribution alone) goes towards my pension and I don’t feel like the city is a good steward. I know that money will be gone by the time I retire. And I don’t want the city to steal my contribution because they can’t manage money.

  • 214. junior  |  April 15, 2012 at 11:58 am

    @202 anonymouseteacher

    Don’t believe everything someone tells you. It is widely reported in credible sources that CPS is offering a 2% raise. So, please don’t create straw men out of some crazy rumors about reducing every teacher down to starting salaries. Please, please, provide some sort of backup to your assertion.

  • 215. junior  |  April 15, 2012 at 11:59 am

    @212

    That is not at all what you are claiming — of reducing all teachers to starting salaries. It is also an *opinion piece* in the Chicago Tribune. Please be more accurate in what you post here.

  • 216. kate  |  April 15, 2012 at 12:21 pm

    (in reference to anonymouseteacher’s @202 mention of “time banked”) Who thinks that means that the student/instructional day will more likely be 6.75 hours?

  • 217. anonymouseteacher  |  April 15, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    I will scan in and email the paper I was handed on Friday and if CPSO is willing to post it, she can.
    fwiw, yes, the BOE wants to give 2% raises–over 5 years total. Not each year. And they want to reduce us all to base pay. Don’t beileve everything you read in our papers. They don’t report what is unfavorable to the BOE. Only what is unfavorable to teachers. And I don’t even like the CTU.

  • 218. Angie  |  April 15, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    @207. SoxSideIrish4: Thanks for the video. I’m not affiliated with the STand4Children, but maybe I should be. Anyone who can figure out a way to curtail the public union power in such a short time is a winner in my book.

  • 219. junior  |  April 15, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    @216
    They want to give you a 2% raise but reduce all teachers to base pay? I guess I’m a little dense, because those two things seem mutually exclusive to me.

  • 220. soxsideirish4  |  April 15, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    @216 ~ i know this is an unsettled time for you but try not 2b 2 upset, after all is said & done, the day and money is going 2 look a lot diff than from where it is now. Have a lovely Sunday!

  • 221. anonymouseteacher  |  April 15, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    I sent in a scanned in copy of the proposal to CPSO. In it, it is stated that year 1 (of a 5 year contract) we’d get a 2% raise, year 2, total pay freeze and years 3-5 elimination of lane and step raises (years exp. and education levels) and reduction of everyone to a base pay and then merit pay will be introduced–but no one will say how much and how that merit pay will be earned or rewarded. There is a comparison to the nightmare that happened in Baltimore when this same policy was instituted.
    I can only go off of what my union says. I don’t trust the BOE at all. I trust the CTU a tiny bit more. We’ll see.
    219, I am trying to remember that. There are still months and months to go. Okay, gotta go now and figure out how to make sure these next ten weeks count for my students.

  • 222. cpsobsessed  |  April 15, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Ok, my first attempt at Google docs. See if this works.
    Also vouching for AnonamouseTeacher’s presence here for a long while.

    https://docs.google.com/open?id=1nDXtI1RgCmIFTc54SshMCAE_nSrt9HX3hrhimGmyzBqvDm6giXapBpHInhIw

  • 223. Paul  |  April 15, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    Looks like we should all get ready for a teacher strike. Where are those homeschooling Website links again?

  • 224. cpsobsessed  |  April 15, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    @207: Thanks for the video. Wow, I can barely get my head around all that. It all seems SO sneaky. They admit outright that they were sneaky.
    As a parent/tax payer I have felt the pressure in Chicago from being “held hostage” by unions so I suppose their way is the only way to make any headway? But, ick.

    They seem deviously strategic, so I have to ask, why the *F* are they not using all these tactics to “trick” the state of Illiniois into bumping up our education funding from our dismal position of what, #49/50?

    It depresses me to think that this is how things happen in our country.

  • 225. junior  |  April 15, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    @221
    Thanks for providing the document.I don’t think it was accurately characterized on this board. Replacing automatic experience-based pay raises with performance based compensation. I don’t have a problem with that in general principle. I’ve always said the best teachers should be rewarded for their additional value.

  • 226. CPS Mom of 2  |  April 15, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    anonymouseteacher, I just wanted to say that as a CPS parent myself, I would completely understand if you did every single thing you listed in your “no more extras”

    Would it be great for my kids if every single teacher did the same thing? Not in the short run, perhaps (though given that CPS doesn’t think those things are necessary — after all, they don’t pay for them — I guess the anti-union people on these boards wouldn’t have grounds to complain if they’re gone). But in the long run, perhaps it would make CPS, as well as those members of the public who think that teachers aren’t working hard enough, realize a bit exactly what happens when teachers truly DON’T, so they could see the difference. Maybe it’s the kind of cold-water-in-the-face that some people — and some politicians — need.

    Don’t worry about those posters (or perhaps poster?) who apparently believe that teachers give 90% of their time to the profession and never, ever, ever say one negative thing about it because it’s “for the children.” *I* don’t sacrifice my entire life for my kids, and I certainly don’t expect their teachers to do that. There are plenty of us out here who do realize how hard you’re working and how much of your life you give to the job you do.

  • 227. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 15, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    @223 cpsobsessed~yes, it was sneaky and then when Jonah Edleman got caught, several of their major backers pulled their financing in IL. Now Stand is pretending to be for children (bc they need to get on the parents side), but it’s all a sham. It’s all about public $$ going to corporate hands. But I will say this I wish they’d use that tactic to help our state re: education…but then they really would have been for the CPS kids.~…they’re not for CPS kids.

    I’m sorry you can’t vouch 4 me, but 4 yrs ago I started posting on here under my real name (first & Last) that wasn’t smart. So I had to change it and then one day I came on here and some else was using my name, so I had to change it again. I come on here a lot but just to read, I’ve only started posting again during the tier/sehs threads.

  • 228. wow  |  April 15, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    @CPS Mom of 2 I agree 100% with you and anonymousteacher! Some people just DO NOT get it. These people do need a cold splash of water in the face. The proposals on that document are RIDICULOUS. And the fighting on this blog is just so crazy.

  • 229. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 15, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    @227~Agreed!

  • 230. WendyRYH  |  April 15, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    @CPSO -When I met with Stand last summer my first question to them was how could they allow the state to cut education funding by $70million the same week they got SB7 passed? They put many millions of dollars into getting SB7 through. Why allow for an unfunded mandate of the bill, let alone an education funding decrease.

    I also talked to Stand last year about advocating for TIF dollars to go to education and they weren’t interested in that.

    We will be back in Springfield in May and if anyone wants to join RYH for a lobby day (I think May 9th), let me know.

  • 231. Mayfair Dad  |  April 16, 2012 at 9:44 am

    http://education.stateuniversity.com/pages/2486/Teacher-Unions.html

    “Historically, many educational policymakers and researchers have viewed efforts of teacher unions as antithetical to school reform. Most teacher union activity has involved aggressive efforts to raise teacher salaries, improve teachers’ working conditions, and protect teachers’ rights, even if this entailed protests that limited or suspended teachers’ work with students. Although school improvement has been on the agenda of the AFT and the NEA for decades, most observers, and union leaders themselves, have recognized that there has been a tension between fighting for rights that are most beneficial to its members and pressing for reform that is most beneficial for students.”

    http://education.stateuniversity.com/pages/2485/Teacher-Unions-INFLUENCE-ON-INSTRUCTION-OTHER-EDUCATIONAL-PRACTICES.html

    “There is little research that systematically examines the effects of union actions on improving instruction and on school reform more generally. It is clear however, that certain policies frequently advocated by would-be reformers would not be as far along as they are now without teacher union cooperation and leadership. These steps include peer review of teacher competence, more robust induction programs, job-embedded professional development, and performance-based pay. It is also clear that the greater emphasis on school improvement and student achievement that has characterized teacher union priorities in the late twentieth century is unlikely to be reversed.”

  • 232. Mom23  |  April 16, 2012 at 10:05 am

    @174 HS Mom. “When individuals and groups make statements that “I’m for a full day as long as it is funded” knowing full well that funding does not exist – they stand in the way of progress. They don’t offer solutions other than “go find the money”. I have seen many good examples listed here of schools that are working to make progress with little or no funding.”

    EXACTLY! Agree 100%

  • 233. Paul  |  April 16, 2012 at 10:11 am

    I think school systems needs to decide whether teachers should be part-time, part-year, low-paid workers that play a small role in the education of our children and therefore should not be held accountable for education outcomes; or full-time, full-year, highly-paid workers that play a large role in the education of our children and therefore should be held accountable for education outcomes.

    In the olden days when a good education was not as important to earning a decent living, it was the former, and now it needs to be the latter. The problem I have with the teachers union is that they advocate for the part-time, part-year part along with the highly-paid and no accountability part. When the union advocates for a ridiculously short school day along with huge raises and fights against accountability using education outcomes, it’s trying to have it both ways.

    Teachers, parents, and just about everyone involved in the school system can agree on more money coming into the school system because they will all benefit from that. But, the people that need to be convinced that it’s a good idea are business people and the taxpayers at large who, at the moment, feel like they’re not getting a very good return on their investment in Chicago Public Schools. If you look objectively at the increasing amounts of money spent on CPS over the years accompanied by declining enrollment and no improvement in educational outcomes, it’s hard to argue with them.

  • 234. Mom23  |  April 16, 2012 at 10:13 am

    Sad how things get done in this state.

    Stand strategy to orchestrate legislation. Really, this seems to be the only way things get done in this state. Backroom deals and maneuvering around political obsticals.

    CTU strategy is to say no to absolutely everything. Then say no again. Then raise panic based on both true information and misinformation. When bad comes to worse, which it will, hold the kids hostage with a strike. Sorry, no sympathy from this parent.

    State of Illinois run by a pathetic band of dems who have gutted this state with unethical crooked legislation. Madigan, Cullerton, Quinn and the rest of them should all join Blago in jail.

  • 235. Mom23  |  April 16, 2012 at 10:22 am

    @232 Agree. Very well stated.

    I saw a post the other week that has stuck with me. It suggested that the CTU should operate more like the American Medical Association or American Bar Association rather than treat teachers like line workers negotiating a contract in minutia. Here it is…….”The problem is the CTU does not distinguish between the good and the bad and the blah teachers. That must be so frustrating for good teachers. I also think this is the root cause of many feeling disrespected because the public response is to the lowest common denomonator bad teacher that the CTU protects at the expense of the good teachers flourishing and getting the respect they so rightfully deserve. The CTU mandate is to cater and defend to the lowest common denomonator of teacher. Good teachers need to be liberated. I am not saying bust the unioin, I am saying the union needs to start acting like a professional organization such as the american medical assoc. or american bar assoc. The teaching profession should be in the same category as doctors and lawyers. Instead the union acts like it is defending factory line workers and negotiating minutia. Think about it good teachers.”

  • 236. Mayfair Dad  |  April 16, 2012 at 10:32 am

    @ 234: I like that post, too.

    Never understood why white collar professionals with advanced degrees insist on being treated like teamsters.

  • 237. mom2  |  April 16, 2012 at 10:51 am

    @234 – I like that post, too. My kids have had some great teachers so far and I feel like they are getting the short end of the stick out there. I don’t want them to leave because they feel unappreciated, but the CTU is hurting them, not helping them.

  • 238. Mayfair Dad  |  April 16, 2012 at 10:56 am

    http://www.aei.org/papers/education/k-12/assessing-the-compensation-of-public-school-teachers/

    “We conclude that public-school teacher salaries are comparable to those paid to similarly skilled private sector workers, but that more generous fringe benefits for public-school teachers, including greater job security, make total compensation 52 percent greater than fair market levels, equivalent to more than $120 billion overcharged to taxpayers each year. Teacher compensation could therefore be reduced with only minor effects on recruitment and retention. Alternatively, teachers who are more effective at raising student achievement might be hired at comparable cost.”

  • 239. Paul  |  April 16, 2012 at 11:24 am

    I recently analyzed CPS teacher pay scales and calculated the gross salary pay rate at between $40-$75 per hour depending on years of experience and education. To me, that qualifies as highly paid, but that probably depends on your perspective. From the perspective of most parents in CPS, where 87 percent qualify as low-income, I feel pretty confident they would consider it highly paid.

  • 240. cpsobsessed  |  April 16, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Paul, what were some of your assumptions? I think teachers start at 45k, which is around $22 an hour (although you have to decide how to take the summer break into account.). Then I’ve heard of teachers supposedly making $120k per year (probably 25+ years in the job) and I assume they’ll be getting what – 80percent of that as pension each year. That sounds pretty awesome to me.

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 241. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 11:31 am

    CTU and CPS appear to have agreed to the appointment of fact-finding panel representatives. The process is slated to start May 1

  • 242. TwinMom  |  April 16, 2012 at 11:40 am

    Honestly, Mayfair Dad, I enjoy listening to the viewpoints of my fellow Chicagoans on this issue (even those with which I disagree), but if you’re going to quote a right-wing thinktank, please clearly identify it as such. Simply including a link to “aei” doesn’t make it clear that your source isn’t exactly unbiased here, or without a particular worldview.

  • 243. Paul  |  April 16, 2012 at 11:46 am

    I assumed that teachers worked the entire required teacher day during the school year, including all the professional and staff development days. I didn’t assume that they left 45 minutes early to take their lunch break, and I didn’t assume that they worked extra hours on the weekend or throughout the Summer break.

    Teachers only make $22 an hour if you assume they work full time (40 hours a week) and that they work year round (52 weeks per year). They don’t. They have the Summer off, a Winter break, a Spring break, multiple holidays, and in most schools they are only required to work for 6 hours and 15 minutes a day. Some teachers are asked to work extra hours and are paid for it. Some teachers get another job in the Summer, tutor, teach music lessons, or otherwise supplement their income. I also know that many teachers voluntarily work extra hours in the school or at home during the school year. Many teachers also voluntarily spend their time in the Summer preparing for the upcoming school year. That’s totally fine, and very laudible. But, it’s not okay, in my opinion, to assume that all teachers work full time, year round, and should be conspensated for it. It’s not the case.

  • 244. Mayfair Dad  |  April 16, 2012 at 11:48 am

    My intent was to bring more information to the party. I include the link so people can visit the site and determine the veracity of the information for themselves. I prefer this to people throwing out unsubstantiated assertions without giving a source. I try to stay on topic. Is there a better blog-friendly way to do this?

  • 245. HS Mom  |  April 16, 2012 at 11:57 am

    231-236 Agree – I think about the many excellent teachers that would never resort to doing the minimum and thank God for their influence in my son’s life. He had a teacher that tutored early in the morning, was always around for parents, attended LSC meetings, coached volleyball. Young guy no kids so he could do more and did. I once forgot to give my son money for a field trip so teacher loaned him $20 – funny because he was in 3rd grade and I would not have given him that much. I was good for it. We still think about him and keep in touch.

    Paul – you hit it on the head. As we get further toward the end of high school the taxpayer POV becomes clearer.

  • 246. Mom23  |  April 16, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Mayfair Dad. Thanks for sharing. Good to see all data and viewpoints. Left or right, this blog can draw their own conclusions.

    Paul, I crunched numbers and got similar rate to yours. Overall, it is pretty clear that teachers are fairly compensated. Also, if you look at CTU pension brochure and factor in pension benefit over career. Entry level teachers as well as long standing teachers get one sweet deal! The good teachers certainly deserve this. The bad ones ride on the good teachers coat tails and drag down the system. Time to get rid of the bad teachers. The CTU should focus on improving their work environment and let teachers be held accountable. What better way to let the good teachers rise and get the bad ones away from our children.

  • 247. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    It’s absurd to talk abt a longer day when Rahm can’t fund the 5.75 day.

    As for teachers, we had one teacher for 1st grade that was young, no kids, educated, he could have done more, but didn’t. He was let go that year and rightly so. So I’ll keep the wonderful teachers we do have at our school. Teachers, who have families and, work hard to educate all children. We have many, many that are there for the sports, attend LSC and PTA meetings, available 4 teacher/parent conferences~they’ve really enriched my child’s life…I wouldn’t put in more hour for free, why should they?

    HSMOM~what school do your kids go to?

  • 248. TwinMom  |  April 16, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    Mayfair Dad (and Mom23), I didn’t say “don’t post opinions from AEI” — in fact, I made it quite clear that I, too, like to read differing viewpoints. I just asked that you make your sources clear so that people don’t have to click on the link and read the website to check the source. If, indeed, you are NOT trying to pass off an an AEI “conclusion” as an unbiased one, then there should be no problem including the name of the source with your quote.

  • 249. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Robert Bruno, director of the University of Illinois’ pro-union Labor Education Program, co-authored a recent study that found most teachers’ work day is actually twice as long as the 5 hours and 45 minutes mandated in the union contract. http://news.illinois.edu/news/12/0409CPSworkload_RobertBruno.html

  • 250. cpsobsessed  |  April 16, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    @paul – ah, right you are about that 22$/hour estimate I made – that is on a corporate workday.
    I do assume a teach would argue at least maybe 7 hours a week extra though.

    Also, how long does a teacher in cps need to work to bag that awesome pension? Isn’t it something like 34 years? What if they leave after 15 for a midlife change? That, to me, is a disadvantage in that yes, you can get tenure, but you’re also locked into a career for your adult life if you want that golden ticket at the end.

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 251. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    FYI~@248~that info was gleaned from Catalyst Chicago~I 4got to write that.

  • 252. Paul  |  April 16, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    Dr. Bruno’s research may be biased because: 1) as SoxSideIrish indicated, it was conducted by a pro-union program, 2) it’s based on teacher surveys as opposed to unbiased observations, and 3) the survey was conducted during the dramatic debate about the longer school day. The results may not be representative of all teachers becaue: 1) the sample of teachers filling out the survey doesn’t reflect the demographic makeup of the teachers, 2) only 9 percent of the teachers sent a survey filled one out, and 3) there may be a substantial non-response bias (i.e. teachers who don’t spend lots of extra time outside the classroom may not want to fill out a survey saying so). As far as I can tell, the researchers did not check for that. There may be other reasons to question the report’s results. The report doesn’t show the range of responses, only the averages. If the average day is over 10 1/2 hours long, there must be some who only worked 7 hour days and some that worked 12 or more. Reviewing that range may help paint a more accurate picture of how teachers spend their days. It also may show some questionable survey answers if, for example, some respondents reported an average of 16 or 20 hours a day throughout the year or something crazy like that.

    Assuming this report accurately accounts for how teachers spend their day, it is slightly above the 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year workrate.

  • 253. Mayfair Dad  |  April 16, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    @ 247 and others

    So going forward:

    1. The point you are trying to make (succinctly)
    2. Link where further information can be found
    3. A footnote as to the origins of the source material

    I’m all about transparency!

  • 254. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    @248
    Here’s what gets my goat — for all the extra hours that teachers supposedly put in (many do, many don’t), they could not be bothered to put their lunch in the middle of the day so that the children of Chicago could get benefit from recess. When given the choice between the kids interests and the “cram-it-all-in-so-we-can-get-the-hell-outta-here” schedule, time and time again they sold our children short. That attitude undermines their credibility when they claim — as in the “study” (really a just survey of teachers) referenced — that they put in so many extra hours.

    If they are working all those extra hours, couldn’t they have put lunch in the middle of the day, during which they could have gotten some of that work done? The potential benefits to the kids were so clear, and I believe, unfortunately the message from many teachers also was. There are many good teachers who did not wish for that situation, but they allowed themselves to be cajoled by the CTU.

    I am a longtime union supporter with several stewards in my family. The CTU has in so many ways lost me as a supporter, and they need to know that the outcry against some of their efforts has nothing to do with anti-union right-wing politics, Stand for Children, Rahm or any other boogeyman they wish to create.

    So, chickies, welcome back to the roost.

  • 255. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    @253~the reason many CPS didn’t have recess is bc it was too dangerous…that why the stopped it~drive by shootings, gangs~once recess resumes, they’ll have to stop it again since RAHM doesn’t have handle on gangs & crime.

    @251~It def could be biased~but I just wanted to add that to the conversation.

    My goal is about a quality day for CPS kids. Personally, I want the IL avg of 6.5 and have it funded. Hopefully, the budgets will go out to principals by May 12th as was stated they would and we’ll see what the #s are for the schools. From what I’ve heard, they look dismal, so I don’t know what that will mean for cutting programs/teachers.

    Mayfair Dad~I read earlier @96 “I have given up trying to fix CPS and instead will devote my full energy to supporting and protecting this great thing we have at D2.”~ I understand this. I only wished CPS would devote it’s full energy to investing in all CPS schools; then you wouldn’t have to protect your school, like I feel I have to protect mine.

  • 256. WendyRYH  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    @Junior. Both parties, the CTU and the CPS were responsible for the teacher lunch being moved to the end of the day. I assume you know the story but CPS agreed to this as they apparently couldn’t figure out a way to ensure teachers have their duty-free lunch, and so both sides cut recess for kids in an effort to make their lives easier. CPS saved money and the CTU didn’t have to worry about working on their lunch break. My group wrote a 25 page toolkit last year for CPS to distribute to every school. They had done nothing over the years to inform parents and schools about this option. When the option was presented last year, 13 schools chose it. Not a ton but more than previously, and I fault CPS for not putting the information out there much earlier. As parents, I think it’s pretty important to remember that we are the best advocates for our children, time and time again.

  • 257. Mom23  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    Is this the Dr. Bruono study the Suntimes quoted which had an 8.5% response rate of 985 teachers? If so, this data is based on a whopping 83 teachers. Hardly a valid sample size.

    @253. Thank you for refreshing my memory about how my kids school just spit on the opportunity to provide recess by moving the teacher lunch. That was an eye opener for me as a parent.

  • 258. cps alum  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    In some ways this debate has become the cliché of someone “talking out of both sides of his mouth”.

    On the one hand people are calculating teacher compensation based on “in school hours” which they have calculated based on the time students are in school, yet they ignore the many hours that teachers spend working in the evenings and weekends (I would estimate this at approx. 15-30 per week). Then they disparage the teachers who suggest that they might just start doing the “minimum” by only working during those school hours.

    What do we want as a society? The average starting salary of a college graduate is approx. $50,000 ($25 an hour 2000 hours per year). Should teachers be paid $25 based on 6 hours a day for 170 school days (lets not count institute days or professional development days since the teachers aren’t really working when they aren’t with the children). Teachers can grade, plan, collaborate, respond to parent phone calls and e-mails, tutor, differentiate lessons, take attendance, enter grades, attend IEP meetings, conference with the principal, decorate their classrooms, hang up student art work, tidy the books and materials, and everything else during their prep periods. That’s plenty of time! But any papers that haven’t been graded during the 6 hour day just don’t get graded. Maybe a teacher squeeze in some time to grade the writing assignments but the detailed comments on how to improve just won’t get done. No time to correct grammar or spelling. No time to comment on how to structure the sentence or paragraph better. No time to check if it was plagiarized. Teachers can read the paper and then put a big A, B, C, D or F at the top without any comment of how or why this grade was assigned. A math teacher can just check to see if the answer is right or wrong. Forget about paying attention to if the “process” makes mathematical sense. A student that gets the right answer after a series of logical errors without mathematical basis will get a better grade than the kid who simply got the wrong answer because they made a copying error midway through a rather brilliant mathematically correct solution. Any planning that didn’t get done for the next day just doesn’t get done. Teachers can “wing” it in class. A teacher who read the newspaper at home and found a relevant article that could be developed in to a great social studies or science lesson won’t bother to do so. That lesson will take some extra research and thought but teachers aren’t allowed to go down to the Chicago Public Library during school hours.

    Or should we pay teachers $50 an hour when calculated on a 6 hour school day 170 days a year with the understanding that teachers are not only working while the kids are in school—they are also doing so much behind the scenes.

    Or perhaps… many don’t really think that teaching is worthy of that average starting salary of a college graduate. Maybe we should go back to the days 150 years ago when all you needed to become a teacher of the little ones was a high school diploma.

  • 259. Mom23  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    @255 I also fault the schools for stopping the adoption of moving schedules when finally provided the information last year. In addition, there are several schools that tried to move the teacher lunch before last year and were voted down by teachers/principal every single year. I think Blaine is one of them. Recdently it was something like over 100 schools voted, but only 13 made the switch. Many more did not even bring it to a vote. I saw first hand how the teachers shot down the parents at my kids school who wanted recess. So while cps certainly should have shared the information earlier, would it have made any difference? Teachers were in a panic to squash it at the expense of the kids getting recess.

  • 260. cpsobsessed  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    @cps alum – if we assume that all teacher need to work say 15 hours a week extra, shouldn’t that then be added to their work day if they get that higher salary based on those assumed hours?

    Those of us in the business world usually assume we work maybe an extra few hours a week, some weekends or late nights when needed. That seems like part of life, but why not make it fair for all teachers to just require a 10 hour paid work day? If a principal was willing, they could allow teachers to do some work at home. But at least we’d be acknowleding the job for what it was, the pay conversation would be more fair, and young people could judge better whether they wanted to enter the field or not?

    (This is all purely hypothetical, of coruse.)

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 261. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    @258 where do your kids go to school? My kids get recess for 20 minutes a day right after lunch. How do you know over 100 schools voted, I hadn’t heard that number b4.

  • 262. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    @259~that’s why schools need to be more autonomous.

  • 263. Paul  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    @259 cpsobsessed, Yes! I agree. We should acknowledge and require that teaching is (or should be) a full time, year round profession, and teachers should be compensated fairly for it.

    @256 Mom23, the report says that the survey was sent to about 12,000 teachers, and about 1,000 filled it out. From a research perspective, one of the questions is whether those 1,000 filled out the survey in the same way that the 12,000 would have. To test for that, the researchers should have followed up with a sample of the 12,000 that did not fill out the survey to see if their responses may have differed.

  • 264. Mom23  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    @260 the 100 number was from a raise your hand meeting at coonley. They put up the schools that switched up on a slide.

    Paul, thanks for the clarification on the study.

  • 265. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    @255 WendyRYH
    Well, teachers and principal held a majority of votes on the committees that made the decisions city-wide. If you are suggesting that CPS is part culprit for having agreed to allow teachers to decide this issue, then I’m sure you will get little disagreement — even within the current CPS, as they are clearly trying to remedy that in the longer day proposal.

    @260 SoxSideIrish4
    Just curious — who supervises your children’s recess?

  • 266. Nope77  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    how many CPS teachers take work home? At my neightborhood grammar school, maybe 1/3. The other slugs run out at 2:30, shuffle off to recess but refuse to monitor anything that goes on because “they need a break” among other things. And they wonder why most parents consider them to be slugs.

  • 267. cps alum  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    @259- That would be one solution, but you would need to maintain that the 4 extra hours at school are WITHOUT STUDENTS present. Many teachers already spend 2-3 hours before/after school tutoring (unpaid) or sponsoring/coaching extracurriculars (paid). Teachers then do the extra planning/grading paperwork after those hours. Additionally many of those extra duties aren’t evenly distributed through the week. While most teachers will spend 2 extra hours a day planning doing daily grading of homework/small assignments, the big assignments come once a week or every two weeks and take more hours. It might take a good 8-10 hour stretch to grade a big writing assignment or project and it seems better to get this done one weekend than to stretch it out 1 hour per day over 2 weeks. Students get their feedback sooner when it is relevant. Also it is easier for a teacher to be consistent in their grading rubric. Also teachers do a lot of research planning lessons at the library, museums at conferences etc.

  • 268. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    @264~not parents. Some of us had heard that CPS had suggested that parents monitor recess. We all laughed at such a ridiculous notion. That’s CPS’ responsibility. I don’t know who monitors~I’m not there. But if CPS’ budget can’t come up w/required monitors~we won’t be having a 6.5 day~it’ll be a 5.75.

  • 269. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    @266~considering CPS class sizes are so LARGE and probably will only get larger, the teacher probably do need a break.

  • 270. Cradle99  |  April 16, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    266 we all need a break . . . but when bullying, etc is going on right in front of you, as an adult you need to do something. I don’t care how STRESSED you think you are.

  • 271. Nope9898  |  April 16, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    Neighborhood school sent this letter to all parents today.
    As an IB school, we deem report card pick-up time as essential to communicating students’ academic development, their strengths, weaknesses and progress on the IB continuum. We, as teachers, are concerned that this collaboration time will be severely compromised in the next year’s calendar. The Board of Education has decided to reduce, by 50%, the hours during which teachers and parents can conference to review report cards and plan for student progress.
    Optimal time for report card pick is critical to students being able to showcase their portfolios and demonstrate to their parents how they are learning. We recognize that three hours is insufficient for us to have a quality meeting with the 60 + parents of our students. We value the parents’ collaboration in this process. We want to continue this partnership with the parents and the community as it is important to maintaining continuity between what takes place at home and at school. Reducing report card pick-up time to just three hours does not give the parents the much deserved opportunity to discuss their child’s progress and plan for their child’s future success. Cutting this time in half can potentially hurt the students’ progress as well as the active role that the parents play in the education of their children.
    In view of equipping our students for the 21st century and providing quality learning environments, we are also asking the Board for common-sense curriculum improvements such as music, art, library, and language classes for all students. In addition, we are advocating lower class sizes and for teacher assistants in all kindergarten and the first grade classes. These supports will ensure a balanced education for all students.
    How can you help our school? You can start by calling CEO Brizard at 773-553-1506 and tell him to keep report card pick-up at 6 hours each semester? Please ask him for the resources that our schools need so that every school gets a world-class education.

  • 272. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    That’s a great letter~one we can all advocate for our children~small class sizes, music, art, library…I’ll call today and have some other keep calling too. That is a common sense approach.

  • 273. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    @267 SoxSideIrish4

    If you have a 5.75 hour day and you have recess, too, then you are deducting recess from the children’s instructional time (which already is some of the shortest in the nation). But it’s all about the kids, I guess.

    As for your contention that recess was eliminated as a safety issue, I hear that as a common excuse (also have heard it in some of safest neighborhoods in the city). Truth is that kids in unsafe neighborhoods frequently do not get to play on their own outside of school, and therefore they are the ones who MOST NEED a supervised recess. If it’s really that horrendously unsafe at a particular school, then indoor recess could serve the same purpose. But these decisions are all about the kids, right?

  • 274. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    @272~It’s not an excuse, if you were from Chicago, you’d know that!

  • 275. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    @273
    Lifelong Chicagoan. Enough with the accusations.

    Where there’s a will there’s a way — there was no will — I saw it firsthand. The only way recess was getting done was through intense parent pressure and/or a top-down political solution. Kudos to Rahm. And I didn’t even vote for him.

  • 276. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    @273
    C’mon, tell us that as a parent you’re defending the teachers who chose to leave school early rather than give kids recess — happened in both safe and unsafe neighborhoods across the city. Never encountered any CPS parent with your collection of opinions.

  • 277. Mayfair Dad  |  April 16, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    @ junior

    I saw it firsthand too. The vote for recess at the school level involves a special vote by three parents selected by the LSC and three teachers selected by the principal. The effort was always couched as voting for open campus and the implied danger of kids roaming the neighborhood unsupervised at lunch time. The principal (at the time) stacked the deck with three rabid pro-CTU lifers and he always cast the deciding vote against.

    Watch how the perceived parent support for CTU evaporates when they strike this Fall.

  • 278. Mom  |  April 16, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    @270 The letter is not true. The report card pick up for next year has been changed to go into the evening. It will be a full 6 hours. It was changed as part of the board vote on the new school calendar and in either times or trib article recently.

  • 279. WendyRYH  |  April 16, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    @SoxSide and Junior – I don’t think safety on site was the main issue 30 years ago when the day was shortened. I think it was that kids used to go home for lunch (or off campus) and teachers got a lunch break and it was deemed unsafe to let kids leave campus as there were less and less at-home parents to monitor. When kids had to be at school instead, CPS couldn’t figure out how to get staff in place to cover recess, or pay for it. And that is still the issue CTU/CPS are arguing about. More than teachers wanting to leave early, who is going to cover the recess is what they are fighting about. Re: safety, there are some great community groups that have worked to bring recess to the most high-crime areas. We work with COFI a lot and they have been pushing a bill in Springfield to make recess mandatory. They cover schools in Englewood, Humboldt Park, etc. I agree with Junior, if there’s a will there’s a way.

    @Mom23 – yes, I do think CPS pushing info down would have made a difference. 13 schools out of 100 is better than 0,although the better decision would have been not to have offered the option from the beginning and for CPS to have figured out a way to staff recess coverage.

  • 280. cpsobsessed  |  April 16, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    Well good for any school that at least put it to vote. My local school for several years has said “the teachers won’t go for it.” And didn’t pursue it beyond that.

    Frankly, that’s when my union perceptions started to form. When a principal won’t even try because they know the teachers won’t want it? That’s either too much control or not enough leadership (in my opinion). Great school in many other ways.

    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

  • 281. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    @275~The teachers never left early~they worked their day. You’ll be surprised by some parents who are now planning on keeping the no recess in a certain neighborhood bc of danger…that’s why autonomy is so important in schools. Rahm keeps talking about Houston, but in the first year they quit the longer day and year. Didn’t help students~their research showed small classes was most beneficial.

  • 282. Paul  |  April 16, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    @279 cpsobsessed: that was the same situation in our school. Parents were told that teachers wouldn’t approve it, so parents were left out of the decision every year. They didn’t even know that had a say.

  • 283. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    @278~I can only speak about the crime area in a certain school that they stopped recess, back when they closed their campus in the 80s. Teachers/students were afraid bc of the area.

  • 284. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    @280
    No, the research showed tutoring was the most effective. Class size has impact in early childhood, but beyond that is not a major factor.

    We all know longer day is not necessarily a better day, but again, teachers all over the city voted down a *better* day by denying kids recess. I’m glad that’s going to change, and I know many other parents who agree.

  • 285. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    @279/281
    It’s one thing for the administration to tell the parents they get a vote. Saw that. Here’s another one — how about when the teachers vote to give it a try and the union rep comes back and says — no, no, you have to reconsider that.

    We really do have a broad range of teacher quality. I don’t want to come down too hard on the lot, because there really are so many good people in that profession. But, as it was said above, the bad ones tend to create perceptions and drag down the rest of the profession.

  • 286. WendyRYH  |  April 16, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    @Sox-Side – yes, I am sure some schools made that decision, I was speaking to the larger decision by CPS to give schools a choice. I hope some of these schools at least investigate what is happening in other parts of the city where recess is happening safely. COFI and Healthy Schools Campaign have helped bring recess to many schools in areas that are deemed unsafe, and there are also other groups that offer running programs and other indoor recess programs. I am going to try and put a resource list together. Am wondering if CPS has one of their website?

  • 287. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    @283~I have the report it says small class sizes and tutoring.

  • 288. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    @286~I’m worried bc I heard that some schools that had pe 2x a week may go down to 1x w/budget cuts. It’s not that i’m not worried abt recess. But we may be losing pe

  • 289. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    Oh I meant 285 not 286 (above,) on comment 287

  • 290. Chris  |  April 16, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    CPSO: ” how long does a teacher in cps need to work to bag that awesome pension? Isn’t it something like 34 years?”

    Saw somewhere recently that it’s 34 years to be fully vested at **55**. If one retires at 65, it’s 20 years.

    Obviously, that may be different as soon as next year.

    And, no matter what else, I would consider a current CPS teacher who started as a 21 yo in 1978 who does *not* retire this year at full pension a damn, bloody fool.

  • 291. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    Considering CTU and CPS appear to have agreed to the appointment of fact-finding panel representatives. The process is slated to start May 1 And they have their 3person panel picked…there will probably be a strike!

    A strike cannot occur until after the fact-finding panel issues a report and publicizes both CTU and CPS’ most recent offers. The panel has a maximum of 75 days to do so. Once the report is issued, both parties have up to 15 days to reject the panel’s report. After that, the union is subject to a 30-day waiting period before it would be able to walk out.

  • 292. Chris  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    I didn’t read it in excruciating detail, but this report:

    http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/files/charter_school_strategies.pdf

    contains the following conclusion (page 20-21):

    “Let us put the magnitude of these estimates in perspective. Jacob and Ludwig (2008), in a
    survey of programs and policies designed to increase achievement among poor children, report that
    only three reforms pass a simple cost-benefit analysis: lowering class size, bonuses for teachers for
    teaching in hard-to-staff schools, and early childhood programs. The effect of lowering class size
    21
    from 24 to 16 students per teacher is approximately 0.22􀟪 (.05) on combined math and reading
    scores (Krueger 1999). The effect of Teach for America, one attempt to bring more skilled teachers
    into poor performing schools, is 0.15􀟪 in math and 0.03􀟪 in reading (Decker et al. 2004). The effect
    of Head Start is 0.147􀟪 (.103) in applied problems and 0.319􀟪 (.147) in letter identification on the
    Woodcock-Johnson exam, but the effects on test scores fade in elementary school (Currie and
    Thomas 1995; Ludwig and Phillips 2007). Fryer (2011b) finds that input-based student incentives
    also pass a cost-benefit analysis, with an effect size of approximately 0.15􀟪 in both math and reading
    depending on the nature of the incentives and the age of the student.

    All these effect sizes are a fraction of the impact of our fully-loaded treatment that includes
    tutoring.”

    What is “fully-loaded”? Longer day + staff replacement & development + “high dosage” tutoring + “data driven” instruction + “high expectation”. No smaller class sizes.

    So, what’s this other report on Houston ISD that shows small class sizes was as good as tutoring + a bunch of other stuff?

  • 293. anonymouseteacher  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    I am 100% for recess and have had many angry conversations with colleagues about why we don’t have it school wide (we do at my grade level). I think pushing lunch to the end of the day is horrible for everyone. But while I am lucky enough to now teach in a neighborhood where shootings are uncommon, I used to teach in a neighborhood where, quite literally, my students’ gangbanger parents would call the school when a major gang fight was about to happen to tell us all to stay inside so their own kids would not be killed. No exaggeration. These are neighborhoods where recess can only happen, with a LOT of daily and constant police presence. I’ve taught in the schools with the bullet holes in the windows, and that is from bullets that came from outside instead of inside the school. Until you have done fire drills where, while taking kids outside, kids start running back inside saying, “teacher, they are shooting!” you can’t tell me that without a lot of daily police presence, it is possible in all of Chicago. So yes, where there is a will, there is a way, I also say, if you want it, you must pay for it and in this case, I believe it means higher taxes to pay for all the additional police that will need to be hired.
    That said, I think recess in some form or another must happen. Upon my job offer, I asked my principal if my students would be getting recess and would only accept the job if it was. Kids, especially small ones, cannot be inside all day.

  • 294. Chris  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    “there will probably be a strike!”

    You seem as close to giddy as one can be in a comment thread.

  • 295. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    @286
    Could you please share your report? I’ve looked at the reports and they seem to emphasize five other areas:

    1. Human Capital: Successful schools reward teachers and principals for performance and hold them accountable if they are not adding value.
    2. More Time on Task: Extended day, week, and school years are all integral components of successful school models. In the case of Harlem Children’s Zone Promise Academy, students have nearly doubled the amount of time on task compared to students in NYC public schools.
    3. Data-Driven Instruction: In the top schools, students are assessed often and results are broken down into discrete skill strengths and weaknesses for re-teaching.
    4. High-Dosage Tutoring: In top-performing schools, students are assessed frequently, and then, in small groups, re-taught the skills they have not yet mastered.
    5. Culture of High Expectations for All: In successful schools, students buinto the school’s mission and into the importance of their education in improving their lives.

    The only thing I’ve found about class size was the comments attributed to the researcher:

    “Fryer presents his strategies as a cost-effective alternative to more standard interventions to close the achievement gap, such as class size reduction. Those interventions, Fryer wrote, produce “a fraction of the impact of our fully loaded treatment.”

    I think in these tight budgetary times we need to focus even more on evidence-based, cost-effective strategies and not rely on what is simply repeated very often. When I’ve looked at studies on class size, they seem to be a mixed bag. Again, that strategy seems to be somewhat effective for the younger children, with diminishing returns for older ones. The Houston folks seem to be most excited about the intensive tutoring as an intervention.

    My own take is — if we don’t have money for intensive tutoring, why not turn to an approach that uses older students as tutors. I think it would be interesting to see those results, because the older students would be reinforcing their own learning by teaching the young ones.

  • 296. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    @292~ITA w/you. Younger grades really should get recess but in some of those dangerous areas it’s scary. Some parents in one area may start the process abt no recess without certain conditions. CPS won’t be able to handle that…I feel sorry for those kids. They should get recess. Why can’t Rahm control the city and get the gang under control…although, I know in some neighborhoods as you said, they are the parents. SAD!

  • 297. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    @294~I don’t want my son to go to school to be a tutor~his job is to and learn and keep learning. CPS’ responsibility it to provide teachers to teach or tutors. My kids are there to learn. My kids aren’t tutors

  • 298. Paul  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    Yes, it looks like a strike is coming. The teachers union looks well prepared for a strike. The teachers at my school are ready for it. I don’t think the union will give an inch on any of their demands.

    I think that the decision for many of us is whether to stick it out with CPS through the strike or make the move to private schools or the suburbs. At least that will be the decision my wife and I will be talking about. And honestly, I think the teachers union could care less about white middle and upper-middle class families who have options. I think the mayor and CPS care about us because we vote and pay taxes, but the teachers union could care less. Our kids will be fine regardless, I hear them saying. And, they’re probably right. Low-income and minority families without options will likely be stuck waiting for a solution, and those kids will have a tough time.

  • 299. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    @297 I agree Paul

    Here’s a list of some of the schools of the 200 that voted

    Von Steuben: 94 percent
    Steinmetz: 96 percent
    Sullivan: 95 percent
    Senn: 95 percent
    Uplift: 89 percent
    Mather: 96 percent
    Northside Learning Center: 80 percent
    Kelvyn Park: 86 percent
    Chicago Academy: 85 percent
    Northside College Prep: 96 percent
    Lane: 93 percent
    Juarez: 96 percent
    Kelly: 94 percent
    Curie: 86 percent
    WY: 98 percent

  • 300. Chris  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    @296: “I don’t want my son to go to school to be a tutor~his job is to and learn and keep learning. CPS’ responsibility it to provide teachers to teach or tutors. My kids are there to learn. My kids aren’t tutors”

    So, you don’t actually have the report showing small class sizes on par with tutoring + other stuff. Got it.

  • 301. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    @294 SoxSideIrish4 said “~I don’t want my son to go to school to be a tutor~his job is to and learn and keep learning. ”

    I think you take a narrow view of learning. Teaching another kid has great learning value.

    Now, instead of changing the topic, how about that reference about the Houston program and class size that I asked for? Or do you want to finally concede a point? (doubt that)

  • 302. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    @299 Chris

    Hey, looks like we keep writing the same responses at the same time. Glad to have someone else chiming in!

  • 303. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    I don’t take a narrow view of learning, QUITE the contrary. I don’t know any school like that and I’m not having my kids do that…unless of course you and CHRIS are from SFC, who may advocate for that, that’s what I thought ~ posers from SFC who’ve probably been on here a long time.~messing w/parents. SAD. Kids go to learn and keep learning, a higher learning, not teach other kids. That’s why we have teachers and if they don’t have a budget, well it’ll be 5.75 and try again next year

    I said it was small class sizes and tutors~I have that report.

  • 304. Chris  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    “I have that report”

    If you have the @#(@%&(%^ report, cite it!!!

  • 305. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    #303 Chris is that how Stand4Children talk in your meetings? I thought you guys would be more educated in speaking.

  • 306. Chris  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    “you and CHRIS are from SFC”

    Yes, we are both from teh Sustainable Furnishings Council.

    Or is it Skiers for Christ?

    Oh, wait, it’s Securities and Futures Commission–that’s right, Junior and I are securities regulators in Hong Kong, just messin’ with ya!

    What next, SoxSide–a Karen Lewis-style “joke” about lisps or something?

  • 307. Chris  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Post the name of the report SoxSide.

  • 308. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    oh yeah, and Houston spent over $2,000 per student. CPS is cash strapped. We’ll be 5.75; try again next year! How can we be like Houston, if we can’t fund like Houston.

  • 309. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    #307~I should say an additional $2000

  • 310. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    No, I don’t find Stand4Children funny or their tactics.

  • 311. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    @302 SSI4

    Tired of your pathetic accusations. When you can’t argue a point, you make ad hominem attacks and insult people. You ignore questions and critiques directed at you.

    I have nothing to do with SFC, and I don’t even know anyone who does. Is your only purpose here to throw out giant friggin’ red herrings, Mr. McCarthy? I see no evidence of you advocating for truth over politics or children over teachers.

    Please give us the reference we’ve asked for or concede the point. I presented a quote from the researcher who said that the Houston approach was in contrast to other interventions like smaller class sizes. I am not taking a political stance against smaller class sizes, as I’ve stated that they can have positive effect for young children, and that’s based on evidence, not politics.

  • 312. Mom  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    SkinnerMom disappeared at the same time SoxSideIrish4 appeared.

  • 313. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    I didn’t leave, but I am now…I don’t get paid to comment on here like Stand For Children ppl do!

  • 314. Mom  |  April 16, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Please almighty lord, let CTU strike so they can feel the wrath of the city. Really, strike, please!

  • 315. anonymouseteacher  |  April 16, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    I reread my post and realized that I’d like to rephrase my point. Out of my great respect for RYH and Wendy, I’d like to say I think recess without police presence would be scary to me personally in some neighborhoods BUT I’d like to hear how RYH is working more specifically in those difficult places, because perhaps they have found a solution I am not aware of. I tend to say things very strongly when I am concerned (this case) or angry (other cases) and need to tone it down sometimes.

  • 316. junior  |  April 16, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    @312 SSI4

    I’m sure you’ll be back as soon as you can think of a new pseudonym — couple weeks maybe?

  • 317. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    I’m back under my SAME NAME, not interchangeable like Stand 4 Children…do you have children in CPS? Where do they attend school?

  • 318. Angie  |  April 16, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    @316. SoxSideIrish4: Where do you teach or are you strictly a CTU employee?

  • 319. HS Mom  |  April 16, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    @246 SSI – no thanks, I would rather not divulge specific school name. He’s a gem. I don’t want him to get spat upon or worse by CTU in the parking lot.

    @294 Junior – thanks for that info. It does not surprise me one bit about class size. I think smart kids will thrive in larger classes and kids that need extra help would benefit more from tutoring. I’m guessing that there would need to be an acceptable level of decent behavior for larger classes to be successful. I like your suggestion of older kids tutoring. Our school had a program where 7th and 8th graders assisted teachers in their free time (lunch. recess (of course you need to have recess), before and after school) We call it merit club. There was also a buddy system for specialty classes like language and technology with younger and older students.

    Wow, sox – don’t know who monitors your kids recess but you are an absolute authority on what everyone else should or should not be doing for recess.

    Yes, I confess. I am with SFC – Save Failing Children. Give them a full rich day at school in any way that we can. When’s our next meeting?

  • 320. WendyRYH  |  April 16, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    @314 – no worries! I wasn’t offended. I completely agree with you that some neighborhoods need way more presence on the playground than others. I know some schools are partnering with nearby community orgs to staff recess. Am not sure if police are present at some of the schools, but I will get more details from COFI. I think it’s critical to put the proper supports in so recess happens safely and that needs to be assessed neighborhood by neighbhorhood. I hope CPS will put the funds there for next fall.

  • 321. Mom  |  April 16, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    Gosh, I’m a little frustrated by SoxSideIrish4 who seems to me (as a long-time poster and parent) to be so obviously a teacher or CTU advocate. It is so transparent to keep calling everyone who disagrees with you a shill for Stand For Children or pretend all of us are the same poster. We are not. Despite being just “Mom” here, I know I am one of several Moms (because I see things posted that I did not post), and I also recognize many, many others as long-time posters — like Angie, Chris, Junior, and Mayfair Dad, to name but a few. If you can’t use logic and reason and have nothing but rhetoric, my guess is you aren’t going to convince the afore-named posters. This is not the best way to advocate CTU’s cause.

  • 322. citygirl  |  April 16, 2012 at 9:18 pm

    @313 Why do you feel CTU should feel the wrath of the city? Just curious….don’t understand the rationale.

  • 323. soxsideirish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    I’m sorry I got the research on cps website mixed up “Extending the School Day or School Year: A Systematic Review of Research (1985 – 2009).” Erika A. Patall, Harris Cooper and Ashley Batts Allen. Review of Educational Research. September 2010. Vol. 8, No. 3, pgs. 401-436″ where it said smaller classes with .Houston and tutoring. I couldnt find my studies, but just did.

    Heard CPS meeting w/CTU was heated 2night and they said they dont have the money to fund the day.

    Not a teacher but a mom who wants a gr8 education for her children. I’ve talked 2 some other parents and they never heard of tutoring by older kids but were glad for the info so they cant tell their schools they are against it. That;s why schools need to have more autonomy’ because what works at your school wont work at many that I know of in the city.

  • 324. soxsideirish4  |  April 16, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    I am curious what school you are talking about bc I dont know any 7th or 8th grader who does the merit club; what school is that?

  • 325. Angie  |  April 16, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    Tribune editorial:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-contract-20120415,0,7670160.story

    CPS position seems very reasonable to me. Union demands, not so much.

  • 326. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 9:07 am

    Parent groups: Data for longer school day doesn’t add up ~Rahm manipulated data to get a longer day~even author of study said it was ‘weak’.

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/11806381-418/parent-groups-data-for-longer-school-day-doesnt-add-up.html

  • 327. junior  |  April 17, 2012 at 9:36 am

    Here’s my positive thought for the day. It’s nice to see so many new people and perspectives on the board wooing opinion on what was once primarily a parents blog. I think that is a great testament to an increasing voice for parents that has been boosted by groups like RYH (thanks, Wendy). Suddenly, it seems everyone wants parents on their side of the issues. It’s nice to be wanted and listened to. I also think that the level of parent awareness of the issues is very high, and it’s very hard for people to peddle snake oil to them any more, whether it’s from politicians, CTU, principals, CPS, or others.

  • 328. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 10:16 am

    Finally, we agree #326!

    #294 junior~you referenced having older students tutor young~where is that being practiced in CPS? I’m just wondering bc helping younger children doesn’t reinforce what an older child already knows, it does however take away from an older child learning even more and growing, if he is suppose to tutor. With common core being implemented in schools, most jr hs students won’t have any time, except their own downtime, that they need.

    #318 HSMOM~I’m interested in know what schools have merit club where 7th & 8th graders tutor younger students.

    If anyone else knows of where the practice of older students tutoring younger, plz share, I’m very interested, esp. merit club.

  • 329. Chris  |  April 17, 2012 at 10:17 am

    “Extending the School Day or School Year: A Systematic Review of Research (1985 – 2009).”

    Link to abstract:

    http://rer.sagepub.com/content/80/3/401.abstract

    which states:

    “That said, findings suggest that extending school time can be an effective way to support student learning, particularly (a) for students most at risk of school failure and (b) when considerations are made for how time is used. Of note, the strongest research designs produced the most consistent positive results.”

    Can’t find a link to a free version of the article, but it appears to have NOTHING to do with smaller class sizes or tutoring.

  • 330. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 10:20 am

    I bought the study. I can state any page you want to know. I will find the study and site the conclusion.

  • 331. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 10:25 am

    Until I find my study~read this about how Rahm lied and that the Reseacher said the study was ‘weak’. The suntimes called Patall and longer day findings are in the link below:

    Parent groups: Data for longer school day doesn’t add up ~Rahm manipulated data to get a longer day~even author of study said it was ‘weak’.

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/11806381-418/parent-groups-data-for-longer-school-day-doesnt-add-up.html

  • 332. Chris  |  April 17, 2012 at 10:25 am

    “I will find the study and site the conclusion.”

    Block quote. Not your interpretation.

  • 333. junior  |  April 17, 2012 at 10:33 am

    @327 SSI4

    There is student tutoring on a volunteer basis at both high school and elementary level. Not really a new idea. But I’m not suggesting the usual tutoring model in which there is a big difference between ages. If you look at approaches like Montessori, with multi-aged classrooms, kids teach other kids of similar ages as a routine part of the learning process. I’m throwing it out there as an idea to explore, not one that I have researched nor one that I have seen any studies of. Certainly, if schools are having trouble staffing a longer day, using a period where kids teach other kids might be a good way to get educational benefit without putting as much increased burden on teachers.

    Checking out for now — too much time wasted here.

  • 334. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 10:43 am

    “Evidence examining the relationship between ED and academic
    achievement remains weak, being based primarily on correlational data and case studies.” (P. 423)

    ‘In addition, 67% of students said the extended day schedule was more stressful and 70% said it placed additional demands on them.’ (P 425)

    ‘Furthermore, it is possible that other support services, such as after-school programs, summer school programs, and other out-of-school services, may provide similar levels of academic support.’ (P 431)

    CONCLUSION:

    The strength of the effect of extending school time as well as the
    long-term and cumulative effects have yet to be determined.
    ____________________________

    All through the study, it was small groups that were studied and they were funded. It takes a lot of funds to implement the longer day~SSI

  • 335. BoredNow  |  April 17, 2012 at 11:08 am

    333 – I’m sure you could find many studies that agree and disagree with this. Can we move forward and try to make the best out of the longer day, especially for the kids?

  • 336. HS Mom  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    @327 – Why would anyone give you school names? You are obstructing parents from networking and sharing solutions that benefit their kids in CPS. Anyone that actively works for CTU against children is a waste of time – I too will sign off, for now.

  • 337. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    This is the study #333~that RAHM & CPS used to manipulate data to get to the longer day…the best thing for my kids is to have a FUNDED day of 6.5hrs This was CPS’ data research. I’m using what they support… FUNDED programs…that show no reseach for a longer day is benefical

  • 338. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    @335, I’m a mom with children in CPS no ties to the union. I want the best day. CPS can’t FUND the day they have now. How will they FUND a longer one. We want answers. CPS can’t answer them bc they don’t have the money

  • 339. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    If we read #333, the data that Rahm & CPS provided for their research we can see how they manipulated it.

    @337~I’m already in contact to find out abt any Merit Program for jr hs students or any program that promotes that in CPS. I want to make sure when I’m with my parents group in the capitol we have the correct information. So Thank you for telling me abt that.

  • 340. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Wow, I guess Stand 4 Children all signed off when I presented the materials that Rahm & CPS used to manipulate data:

    “Evidence examining the relationship between ED and academic
    achievement remains weak, being based primarily on correlational data and case studies.” (P. 423)

    ‘In addition, 67% of students said the extended day schedule was more stressful and 70% said it placed additional demands on them.’ (P 425)

    ‘Furthermore, it is possible that other support services, such as after-school programs, summer school programs, and other out-of-school services, may provide similar levels of academic support.’ (P 431)

    CONCLUSION:

    The strength of the effect of extending school time as well as the
    long-term and cumulative effects have yet to be determined.
    ____________________________

    All through the study, it was small groups that were studied and they were funded. It takes a lot of funds to implement the longer day~SSI

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/11806381-418/parent-groups-data-for-longer-school-day-doesnt-add-up.html

  • 341. junior  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    @340 SSI4
    Why do you continue to be an ass with your accusations?

  • 342. Lakeview Dad  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    @334 Bored Now.

    Completely agree. People’s minds are made up. Parents generally support the longer day. Union will probably strike.
    It won’t be pretty but something will get worked out in the final analysis.

    Next topic please.

  • 343. Angie  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    @336. SoxSideIrish4: Curbing the union demands would go a long way toward funding the school day, however long it might be.

  • 344. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    Parent groups: Data for longer school day doesn’t add up ~Rahm manipulated data to get a longer day~even author of study said it was ‘weak’.

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/11806381-418/parent-groups-data-for-longer-school-day-doesnt-add-up.html

    and check #339 for author’s conclusion

  • 345. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    @342~the union and their negotiations have nothing to do w/me. No matter what, CPS can’t fund this day adequately. They should let school have autonomy for their day, since CPS can’t fund it.

  • 346. ChicagoGawker  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    SSI4, I think you have made your position redundantly and exceedingly clear, with the vehemence of someone with more skin in the game than a typical CPS parent.

  • 347. junior  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    @342
    it’s pretty simple — all else being equal, make teachers work the same hours that most teachers around the country work for the same pay/benefits. Bingo — longer day at same funding level. Sure, we’d all like more funding for extra goodies and do need to keep the pressure on for that.

    SSI4, you are out of the mainstream with your 5.75 hour shortest day —

    From RYH survey
    ———
    16 percent of respondents in their online survey supported extending the school day to 7.5 hours. A vast majority – 71 percent – support a school day of 6.5 to 7 hours.
    ———–

    If I read that data correctly, that’s 87% in favor of a day 6.5 hours or longer.

  • 348. Angie  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    @343. SoxSideIrish4: Blah-blah-blah. Repeating the same post over and over is not going to convince everyone. And guess what, I know how to cut and paste too. From the Tribune article in #324:

    “The teachers contract will have to provide a path to save money and build flexibility in the school system. Some key ways to do that:

    • An end to “step” and “lane” raises. Right now teachers are automatically rewarded for earning advanced degrees or certificates (“lane” raises), or for adding another year of seniority (“step” increases). Together, those raises cost about $41 million a year. Remember, those raises are on top of any systemwide cost-of-living salary increase. A better idea: Reward teachers who demonstrate superior performance, or take on increased responsibilities or acquire skills that have a track record for improving student performance.

    • Scale back severance benefits. Many tenured teachers, if they lose their jobs, are guaranteed a full year’s work at full salary. Generally, they work as substitute teachers, a job that typically pays far less than full-time teachers earn. CPS can’t afford that subsidy to former full-timers.

    • End the banking of vacation and sick days. From 2006 to 2011, CPS paid a staggering $265 million to employees for unused sick and vacation days, the Better Government Association reported earlier this year. Some of it went to top administrators, and much of it went to teachers, who are allowed by contract to bank 325 unused sick days. That must stop. Sick days should be a benefit paid when you are sick. They shouldn’t be carried over year after year, ending in windfall payments when employees leave the system.

    • Require teachers to contribute more to their pension costs. Right now, teachers pay 2 percent of their salaries, while CPS picks up 7 percent of salary for them. That costs the district $170 million a year on top of its own contributions to the pension fund. CPS also contributes an employer’s share. As the chart here shows, that share is due to soar in 2014 and beyond.

    • Base layoffs on performance, not seniority. In 2010, former CPS CEO Ron Huberman laid off dozens of the lowest-performing teachers first, rather than basing layoffs solely on seniority. The union sued, saying that its contract called for layoffs to be done according to tenure, unless the district had established rules for another method. That case is still in arbitration. Let’s not have a repeat this year. The new contract needs to make clear: If layoffs are necessary, the worst-performing teachers go first.

    •Allow schools to make everyday decisions without having to read the fine print in the contract. We’re told the union’s bargaining agenda this year contains 579 proposals. The current contract runs more than 200 pages and governs virtually everything that happens at a school — staffing, lunch breaks, class sizes — down to the molecular level. Think we’re kidding? The contract even specifies that if a school has an intercom, an “oral signal” is to be given to indicate the intercom is open or a light has to be installed on each outlet to indicate as much. “

  • 349. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    Parent groups: Data for longer school day doesn’t add up ~Rahm manipulated data to get a longer day~even author of study said it was ‘weak’.

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/11806381-418/parent-groups-data-for-longer-school-day-doesnt-add-up.html

    and check #339 for author’s conclusion

  • 350. Mom23  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    @334 and 335. Amen, let’s move forward on how to make the best longer day for the kids and share ideas of how we can help each other at our individual schools. Sure, Soxside can still peddle the just as questionable parent white paper and we can find all kinds of studies that do NOTHING to help us with the issue at hand. I am all for information and data, but the way it is being used by soxside is just not productive.

    I would rather embrace that it is going to happen at 7 hours and help my kids school succeed. Of course, money would be good, but to me HOW the principals spend the money is more important right now because in reality, budgets will be flat at best. As this thread indicated earlier on, it does not make sense how schools who all get about the same discretionary funding (either/or parent and state dollars) do not all have music. Maybe the solution for music is to educate those principals that they should fund a music program instead of an additional office staff. That is my understanding of how the budgets will be set-up to allow principals flexibility to allocate funds. To me, that is a productive way to approach this instead of trying to accuse REAL parents of being a part of Stand.

  • 351. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    FYI~that’s an editorial…I’m talking research on #348 that Rahm & CPS used.

  • 352. another CPS mom  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    “I know some schools are partnering with nearby community orgs to staff recess.” How will these volunteers (or hires) be vetted? Criminal background checks? Trained to work with disabled students? etc.

  • 353. Angie  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    @350. SoxSideIrish4: Are you disputing the facts in that editorial? Then link to the reliable source that shows which of these facts are incorrect.

  • 354. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    I can’t see that happening, CPS is responsible for recess if they want the longer day. How will they fund that?

  • 355. Paul  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    @341. I also agree. People’s minds are made up. The strike is coming. I wonder what options CPS has available once the teachers strike. How can the strike be resolved?

  • 356. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    #351~now I’m worried abt vetting for recess. I better call my Alderman and State Rep. I don’t want someone not related to CPS to monitor recess.

  • 357. Mom23  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    @353 Recess is already being done at many cps schools “unofficially”. Soxside, it sounds like your school has “unofficial recess” because it cuts into instruction. The longer day resolves this. Yes, recess is a scheduling challenge, but it does not require funding. Many schools have parent volunteers to help, others do not and guess what, it works either way. Really, you want to stop ALL CPS kids from a longer day because of recess? You keep stretching your logic at all costs instead of listening to alternative point of view. There are other blogs that would welcome you with open arms.

  • 358. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    You don’t run this blog MOM23. I’ve never wavered from my position. I agree to 6.5 but many kids in my area are doing well at 5.75~FUNDING is the issue…CPS doesn’t have it.

  • 359. Mom23  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    Allocation of funding is the real issue. At both CPS level and more importantly at each school level. Just so you know, wavering and stretching logic are two different things.

  • 360. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    I NEVER stretched anything. I used the research RAHM and CPS used to make the determination for the longer day..they manipulated data (that’s been document). I did not.

  • 361. junior  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    @355 SSI4
    Sounds like you agree with every excuse under the sun to keep the day shorter.

    I believe all CPS volunteers do go through background checks. From what I recall, LSC members also do. I volunteer at CPD and did go through a check (and yes, I passed). Just more longer-day boogeymen from SSI4. And yes, it is tiresome.

  • 362. Mom23  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    blah blah blah

  • 363. Mom23  |  April 17, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    Sorry Junior my blah blah blah was meant for soxside.

  • 364. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    I believe the day should be the IL avg. 6.5. We already know that Rahm & CPS manipulated data to achieve the 7hr day.
    http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/11806381-418/parent-groups-data-for-longer-school-day-doesnt-add-up.html
    The problem is there is no FUNDING.

  • 365. Muzzle it  |  April 17, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    CPSObsessed, can you put a muzzle on SoxSideIrish? The blog is becoming unbearable to read for my friends and me.

  • 366. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Really Muzzle, my friend is a friend of CPSO and I’ll have her email her to let her know I’m a real person not tired to CTU!

  • 367. junior  |  April 17, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    @SSI4

    Let’s look at your original statement on the Houston issue;

    “Rahm keeps talking about Houston, but in the first year they quit the longer day and year. Didn’t help students~their research showed small classes was most beneficial.”

    I believe your statement about the Houston study finding small classes was the most beneficial factor has been soundly discredited now. The study, as I stated originally, shows a big positive for tutoring, which was never mentioned in your original post.

  • 368. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    I know Junior, I went on to apologize that I had study mixed with the one Rahm & CPS manipulated to get the longer day
    “Extending the School Day or School Year: A Systematic Review of Research (1985 – 2009).” Erika A. Patall, Harris Cooper and Ashley Batts Allen. Review of Educational Research. September 2010. Vol. 8, No. 3, pgs. 401-436″

  • 369. junior  |  April 17, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    @367
    Apology accepted, but can you point me to the info on small class size if there is any? I don’t really have time to sift through it all.

  • 370. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    I don’t have that study w/me at the moment but I do have the Dennis Coates, “Education Production Functions Using Instructional Time as an Input,” Education Economics 11:3 (Dec 2003), from National Center on Time & Learning, which is on CPS website as research.

    Coates (p.290) concludes that:

    “the effects of instructional time are quite small”
    “The analysis finds harmful effects of increasing class sizes”
    “the effectiveness of any given amount of instructional time is adversely affected when class size is increased”
    “any policy changes that focus exclusively on class size or instructional time to the exclusion of the other will have smaller benefits than its proponents indicate”

    But it all goes back to funding. To have a gr8 school w/small classes it has to be funded and in all the research it says says their studies were fully funded.

  • 371. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    I have to leave but I’ll be back under my own name and I will have my friend contact CPSO to let her know I am a real person with no ties to CTU. All I care abt is a good education for my kids and all CPS kids.

  • 372. relevant?  |  April 17, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    370 take your time

  • 373. mom2  |  April 17, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    I see this blog going on and on, so I think we need to break things down a bit.

    For those of you that believe the only way to have a good education for your kids is to have exactly a 6.5 hour “fully funded” day, please think about the length of school day and clearly define “fully funded” in terms of exactly what that means.

    For example, do you honestly believe that if we don’t pay our teachers exactly what CTU is demanding, we won’t be able to give our kids a good education? What if we end up with offering much less but we pay for more classroom supplies, would the kids lose out on a good education?

    Do you honestly believe that if the day was 7 hours instead of 6.5, then the kids won’t get a good education? If it isn’t the length of the day but how it is used that is the issue, then say that. Don’t keep talking about how those 30 minutes will make all the difference in the world between a good education and a lousy one.

    If “fully funded” means that the electricity and water bills and such will be paid, there will be enough certified teachers to teach a class of 35 or less, and things like that, the argument is quite different than believing the only way to provide a “good education” is to give in to all CTU demands.

    Just trying to move this along.

  • 374. My two cents...  |  April 17, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    I think the 7 hours is a good idea. My children ( 5 and 7) have a 7 hour day at their school and it is perfectly fine. The bottom line is that good/great teachers make good/great students. This CTU talk is a complete waste of time. Rahm is going to bust the union and it is going to be gone. Once that happens bad teachers will be fired, as they should be. For every bad teacher out there who is too lazy or apathetic to care or do a good job there are 10 behind them who are ready, able, and willing to step up and be a great teacher. Your ability to keep your job should be based on how well you do it, not on how long you’ve been there. That is how it works in the real world and it is even more important when you’re talking about the education of our children.

  • 375. Sosidemom  |  April 17, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    Here is my idea of a fully funded day. Students are given a well rounded curriculum, focusing not just on test prep, but critical thinking in the areas of reading, math, science, and social studies. Children that are struggling receive appropriate interventions. Special Ed students receive high quality services in their own neighborhoods, with appropriate clinical services. Enrichment programs are provided by CPS, not by endless fundraisers. Sufficient staff is provided by CPS to monitor recess. Teachers are on hand to lead classes in art, gym, music, and library, not just once a week. That art classes be given supplies beyond plain white paper and crayons. That librarians don’t have to push a cart of books from class to class. The CTU surely does not expect a 30% raise. It is a negotiating tactic. However, the proposed full day, longer year, adds about 2 additional months of time to a teacher’s workload. That seems to call for more than a 2% raise in a five year span.

  • 376. EdgewaterMom  |  April 17, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    @372 mom2 I think that you make an excellent point. People need to clarify what they are arguing for. We can go back and forth on vague points like “fully funded”. Teachers are professionals, and they are not paid a salary, not an hourly wage. They should be compensated fairly as professionals, but obviously there are many different ideas about what is fair.

    Teachers also have to realize that (many) schools have such a short day because teachers have been able to push their lunch hour to the end of the day. This is not in the best interest of the students. Some of the “lengthening” of the day is simply moving their lunch break back to the middle of the day. Teachers and students both need a decent break during the middle of the day.

    I know that many teachers work very long hours, just as many other professionals do. I also know that many teachers are in the parking lot by 2:50 (when school is dismissed at 2:45). We can’t paint all teachers with the same brush.

  • 377. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 17, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    I agree w/ you 374 Sosidemom we need libraries filled w/book and have librarians, pe every day, foreign languages, art teachers, music teachers. I would love if my school had that. It’s terrible that we have a walking library…

  • 378. mom2  |  April 17, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    Thank you to everyone that is starting to talk about the details behind the comments. Now we are getting somewhere!

  • 379. PortageParent  |  April 17, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    As far as specifics go, I guess I would be more supportive of the longer day if it weren’t in fact taking things away from our school’s schedule. Because CPS has given specific minutes per subject, our kids are actually *losing* a recess. Currently, our school is 6.5 hours and the children have *two* recesses. Our older kids (gr 3 and up I think) will loose one recess. We have a phenomenal social studies teacher, but the kids will loose time with him based on the CPS minutes. Our kids already get recess, gym, fine art, language, library, etc., and are 100% on the ISATs. So the 7.5 hr schedule wasn’t more appealing to me. I will concede that we could use more math time. I hope that is in the cards for us. The 7 hr schedule isn’t finished yet, so we’ll see. It’s frustrating to be a part of something that works, only to have CPS come and muck around with it. What drives me even crazier is that it would have taken almost nothing for CPS to just say, “no more closed campus, no more pushing lunch to the end of day, everyone go back to 6.5″. That is the real CPS day anyway and teachers are already paid for that. I know there still would have been a ruckus, but that’s nothing compared to this.

    I realize, however, that our situation is not the norm for the district. I wish every kid had the same opportunities at a CPS school. So im worried for the schools that dont have the resorces to do anything but focus on core subjects alone and/or have a questionable situation in terms of recess supervision. We used to be a part of a 5.75 school and I thought that was crazy short. So ive swung from pro longer (6.5) to skeptical of the new longer day (7 or 7.5). Bottom line, we’ve got to keep an open dialogue to help one another. I want to hear about other parents experiences, fears, hopes, and ideas. I am sick of feeling like there is just one long cyclical argument here – CTU versus CPS.

  • 380. citygirl  |  April 17, 2012 at 11:04 pm

    @374 and 375- Thank you for posting comments that make sense! We can not assume the worse with the teachers as we do not know everything that is taking place behind closed doors.Our system is broken in many places here in the city and we need to fix it.

    What I find interesting is that in all these articles and studies being done I have not seen one reference made to brain research. While I am not an expert, I do know that for each chronological year of life there is a period of sustained attention. Quite simply you can not expect a 5yr old to have the same attention span as that of an 11yr old. We need to keep in mind the overall development of children. Let’s talk about putting play back into the day for kindergarteners. How many of you remember having fun learning, singing songs, socializing, playing games, and listening to stories. Well things have changed, children are expected to leave kidergarten practically reading.This also concerns me with the issue of merit pay and it is trickling down into the primary grades. I worry that with the new standards and new assessments being put in place, the integrity in teaching is going to be compromised.

    I have a friend who’s theory is that the teacher’s union is being targeted because it is a profession that is dominated by women. She is not a teacher by the way, but I found it an interesting point of contention and something to think about…

  • 381. citygirl  |  April 17, 2012 at 11:06 pm

    @378 Well said! Thank you!

  • 382. Sure  |  April 18, 2012 at 12:10 am

    @jordin the whole having 2 days off is not as absurd as you think. Some schools need it. Take for example Lane Tech (a school I am involvedn). A school of 4500 kids. About 10
    00 plus in the junior class. Lane needs the other 3000 out so that the bell is not ringing every 46 minutes and the hallways are not loud and rowdy. This isn’t the case for all schools,but some need it. But you have a point, the calendar should be more specific.

  • 383. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 18, 2012 at 4:44 am

    #378~I feel like you. Our school isn’t broken so why fix it? But I don’t like how since Stand4Children came to IL and was sneaky w/us and now Rahm is manipulating numbers to make it seem that 7 hr day is good. My kids have always had a lunch in the middle of the day and they like that.

    #379~I’ve seen research on another board/cps blogs, that show, anything longer than a 6.5 day is just time in the class. I don’t want that for my kids.

    I do think think that art is very important and would like to have a full time art teacher. I don’t want just core classes, with nothing else, but we’ll have to wait for the budget in May. #378 your school seems like it’s doing so well now. Do you fundraise at all?

  • 384. anonymouseteacher  |  April 18, 2012 at 7:15 am

    When I think of a fully funded 7-hour day, this is what I’d like to see for my students:
    45 minute lunch/recess in the middle of the day and CPS pays for qualified people to supervise that happening, both in schools with a dedicated lunchroom and those where lunch has to happen in classrooms, giving more funds to those without lunchrooms due to the need for more supervision.
    I’d like them to have daily PE, in line with Illinois school code. I’d like to see all schools have a dedicated library and librarian, music teacher and art teacher.
    I’d like to see all schools have roofs that don’t leak, restrooms where all the toilets flush, and playgrounds with equipment in good working order.
    I’d like to see all primary classrooms have a cap on them of 20 and all others a cap at 24.
    I’d like to see every classroom fully stocked with every single thing they need. Paper AND paint. Books AND shelves to put them on. Ink for printers supplied as often as they run out. And working AC AND working heat in every school.
    Teacher’s assistants for K-1 in every school in the city. More reading specialists and ESL teachers. More school counselors, psychologists, and other needed staff.
    Part of what schools are being asked to do with the longer day is to provide more interventions for struggling students, and on a much smaller level, enrichment for our advanced kids. But there are no additional staff being hired to provide this. While it can be provided on a “scratch the surface” level by one teacher working with 30+ kids, it can be provided on a “make a difference” level, the kind of which people keep describing as tutoring in Texas schools that actually helped achievement. You don’t help kids achieve at the level we are looking for with 7th and 8th graders. You do it through reading specialists with 10+ years experience who are absolute masters at their craft. This, to me, is the biggest missing piece in the whole longer day idea. In order to really improve skills, we need more small group work and more staff to make that happen. Without this piece in particular we don’t actually offer effective means to improvement. Fwiw, other than the occasional “reading buddies” tool, I’d yank my kids out of any school that used 7th and 8th graders to “tutor” kids during the school day. After school might be another thing, but during the regular day, both older and younger kids need to be instructed by adults who have been trained in education.

  • 385. Angie  |  April 18, 2012 at 7:38 am

    @379. citygirl : “I have a friend who’s theory is that the teacher’s union is being targeted because it is a profession that is dominated by women. She is not a teacher by the way, but I found it an interesting point of contention and something to think about…”

    Oh, yeah. When all else fails, and the public can see right through you, pull out the gender and race cards. Who do you think you are kidding?

    What about the firefighters’ union that Rahm went after for cheating on mileage? Is that dominated by women, too? What about the McCormick place workers that drove the lucrative convention business out of this city? What about the CTA union?

    Rahm is trying to clean up all the union abuse that is bankrupting this city, regardless of their membership, and CTU teachers better get on board with it.

  • 386. HS Mom  |  April 18, 2012 at 8:55 am

    To add to something about libraries. I have seen very successful class libraries put together by the teachers. I’m not suggesting that teachers should reach into their own pockets, and I know that many of them do, but they can be a real resource and a source of pride for the teacher and the class. Many are put together with book donations and the purchase of books, through donation, at Scholastic book fairs. The books are geared toward that particular grade level. I’ve seen some spectacular class libraries. Not the same as a real library, but, you gotta do what you gotta do. Our school does not have a library and partners with Chicago Public Libraries. Just a positive suggestion.

    @383 If you take another look at all posts talking about kids helping each other out there is no mention or even the suggestion that older kids take time out from their academic schedule to tutor younger kids. I don’t know of a school that does that so I think you’re safe – maybe. Please check your facts. I think the purpose of sharing ideas is to move forward in a positive way given a limited budget.

    @379 If you look at the history of CTU, started late 1800′s to protect women and their role in the workforce. The role of women in the workplace, particularly education, has changed considerably and so has the role of Unions.

  • 387. mom2  |  April 18, 2012 at 9:32 am

    Keep up the good work on the specifics. I believe without talking about paying more, we may be finding a lot more common ground on things.

    Some people are concerned about a longer day because their school seems to work well already and they don’t want to lose the things that are working and be told what to do instead. They want their school to have the autonomy to use the extra time for what they need (maybe more math, maybe art, maybe longer social studies, etc.) That doesn’t mean they are against the longer day, just concerned about the implementation.

    Some people are concerned abou the longer day because they worry that the youngest students will be forced to sit at a desk and do more work and they have studies that show that the youngest kids need time for playing or play based learning (being read to, singing songs to learn something, doing a craft to create something related to a topic, etc.) They aren’t necessarily against the longer day, they just want to make sure that the youngest kids don’t burn out because the school isn’t allowed to, won’t or doesn’t have the rescources to give them the other methods of learning and keep them moving.

    Some people are concerned that with a longer day, things that schools already lack will just get worse – broken bathrooms, lack of a library, lack of art or music teachers, missing classroom supplies, lack of aids or people to help special ed kids, etc. They aren’t against the longer day or pro CTU pay raises, they just want to make sure their school and all other schools have what they need to provide a quality education for their students.

    I think the longer day can work just fine, so you would say I am pro longer day (6.5 hours, 7 hours or whatever). But I agree with all the concerns above. I just believe or trust somehow that adding the hours won’t make tihngs worse, and could help some schools have more time to devote to the things they need to provide the quality education our students all deserve. It all depends on how we fund it – where we find the money and what it is used for. I want it used for the students, the extra teachers, special ed, supplies and the school building and not as take-home pay for the existing teachers.

  • 388. Jen K  |  April 18, 2012 at 9:51 am

    @385: Disney II uses the classroom library model and it works well from what I have seen. The books are easily accessible at any time during class & are available to take home with permission. My daughter also has used the in-class libraries from higher grades so she is not limited to just her own teachers’ collections. Some books were purchased by the school, some by parents as class gifts (for birthdays or during the book fair), and I’m sure many have been provided by the teacher.

    @386: well said.

  • 389. averagemom  |  April 18, 2012 at 9:54 am

    Regarding recess staffing, at my kid’s school the special ed aides and school security are out with the kids at recess.

  • 390. Mayfair Dad  |  April 18, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    Let’s call a cease fire for one hour so everyone can go vote for the Local School Council at their respective schools.

  • 391. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 18, 2012 at 3:51 pm

    I voted! 6500 candidates across the city! Wow!

    384. anonymouseteacher~well said.

    386. HS Mom~I never said older kids took time away from their academics~I meant I never heard of that merit club and I guess neither did CPS know of any schools like that. So If any1 knows about a 7&8 gr merit club, please share that info.

    388. JenK~my kids have an in-class library. They had to take our ‘real’ library and give it as a classroom~overcrowding. I’d like to get that library back~may be if CPS gets the funds, our library can go back to a library.

  • 392. HS Mom  |  April 18, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    Comment 386 was to 384 not 383 – sorry

  • 393. HS Mom  |  April 18, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    and 386 to 380 not 379, something going on with numbers….my bad

  • 394. anonymouseteacher  |  April 18, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    HS mom, my comments re: tutoring happening during the day were said because we were discussing the 7 hour day specifics, or did I misread the topic? If we are discussing the 7 hour day, that implies we are talking during the school day. If the tutoring happens after school, then that does not affect the longer day, it is an after school thing and is a separate thing.
    As well, I personally have worked in 3 schools, 2 of them CPS, that have used older grade kids to do clerical work (bringing papers to teachers,filing papers in the main office, etc.) as a “reward” for good behavior or good grades, so it isn’t that far of a stretch to assume that is what does happen or could happen. I watched that happen on a very regular basis. The entire idea of using jr. high kids as tutors is ridiculous to me. if we want to boost achievement, jr. high kids as tutors (even after school) might be a well intended or positive minded suggestion, but good intentions or not, it isn’t good practice by any stretch of the imagination. No one here would ever tell their kids, if their pediatrician wasn’t available, to go down the street and ask the 12 year old living there to help them with their stomach ache. The comparison is accurate to teaching as well. You can’t give a jr. high kid the responsibility that really requires one to be an educated, experienced, well trained adult.

  • 395. Chicago Mama  |  April 19, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    @ Chris, I have the full text of the Patall study too. I’m happy to CITE the research. ;-) Also, one question I had about the Sun-Times article was, “How did Rosalind Rossi ask the question?” of Patall.

    One thing that I think keeps getting dropped from this discussion is the non-achievement outcomes — something that parents are looking for when they say they want PE, arts, music, language, etc. The research presented by Patall suggests that an ED or EY can produce positive non-achievement outcomes.

  • 396. CPS parent survey is open  |  April 19, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    CPS 2012 My Voice My School Parent survey

    http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ps-english

  • 397. wy mom  |  April 19, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    Is that the survey where if you are extremely critical of your school, the school goes down in levels in the eyes of CPS?

  • 398. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 19, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    Yes, this survey was only suppose to be given our through your school. It can affect the school and weaken it from one level down to another.. This should be taken off.

  • 399. CPS parent survey is open  |  April 19, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    Soxside, What are you talking about? It’s on CPS.edu!

    What about this survey frightens you so? Wow. Scared of parent input much?

    From CPS – we want to hear your opinions! Please complete the 2012 My Voice, My School Parent Survey about your child’s school.

  • 400. CPS parent survey is open  |  April 19, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    Link to CPS page on the survey

    http://cps.edu/Pages/MyVoiceMySchoolParentSurvey.aspx

    Knowing that posters such as Soxsideirish don’t want parents to know about the survey will hopefully make even more concerned parents complete this very short survey.

  • 401. Angie  |  April 19, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    @399. CPS parent survey is open: What scares me is that there’s no way to check that people are voting for the school their kids actually attend, or that they even have children in CPS system. What is to stop some disgruntled individuals from voting down a school because it did something against the union wishes?

  • 402. anonymouseteacher  |  April 19, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Doesn’t every parent already know about this survey? Principals and teachers have been pushing (at the STRONG urging of the BOE) parents to please fill out this survey. I believe that schools are supposed to have a certain number of parents filling it out. Please, fill it out if you are a CPS parent. All teachers and parents and I believe, upper grade and high school kids, were given multiple notices or were supposed to have gotten multiple notices to fill it out. It is no big deal. Yes it is possible for a school to be rated down or up because of it. I wouldn’t worry too much. My guess is this is just another passing fad in CPS and will be gone in a year or two, but in any case, I think the survey is a good thing, so do fill it out.

  • 403. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 19, 2012 at 8:14 pm

    #401 &#402 If a school is graded down for whatever reason, say from a level 2 to a level 3 then that school goes on notice~it could be scheduled for turnaround/closing and it’s funds will dry up. Only parents are suppose to fill this out. By opening this up here, we don’t know who is filling it, if they’re mad at a principal, teacher or if their child even attends that school.

  • 404. CPS parent survey is open  |  April 19, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    The sky is falling! More parents know about the survey cps wants parents to complete. Oh! And there is NO FUNDING! Run for the hills!

  • 405. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 19, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    I’ve never seen you on the boards b4 “CPS parent survey is open” Why do you always change your name???

  • 406. CPS parent survey is open  |  April 19, 2012 at 9:52 pm

    Soxsideirish4,

    Oh! Just learned from your twitter feed that you also post here as WY Mom. Sorry indidnt realie that before. What exactly are the rules – or your rules – for using “names” on this board?

  • 407. soxsideirish4  |  April 19, 2012 at 10:28 pm

    I knew you were flowing me on twitter…2 bad you cant find the other board regarding cps…but what abt wy mom???

  • 408. CPS parent survey is open  |  April 19, 2012 at 10:38 pm

    Soxsideirish4, what other board? Do tell.

  • 409. soxsideirish4  |  April 19, 2012 at 10:39 pm

    check my twitter…i use the same here,but you know that…Stand4Children is on it all the time…

  • 410. Chris  |  April 20, 2012 at 6:15 am

    “@ Chris, I have the full text of the Patall study too. I’m happy to CITE the research. Also, one question I had about the Sun-Times article was, “How did Rosalind Rossi ask the question?” of Patall”

    Are you suggesting that you might actually quote meaningful passages from that study rather that cherry-picking “soundbites” that–taken out of context–appear to support your viewpoint? If I cared to–and had the total disregard for an honest discussion that some here have–I’m sure I could find things CTU/Karen Lewis have written/said that support the opposite of their real views. Nevermind accusing all who disagree with me as being a paid shill for some organization or another.

    Doing that is especially easy in academic social science papers, as they vitrually always include a fair amount of hedging, especially when they are reviews of actual research (whether shoddy or perfect, but mostly somewhere in the broad, soft middle) studies.

  • 411. Chris  |  April 20, 2012 at 6:29 am

    The other thing I find odd is the vehemence when WY alreday has a 7+ hour school day. Must be covering for some undisclosed interest.

  • 412. HS Mom  |  April 20, 2012 at 9:02 am

    @394 – I see your point. Thought you were part of the discussion on how schools can make gains with limited funding. This is not a big deal for me, just hoping to support any creative thinking.

    So then with regard to the topic, longer day, and your comments in 173 – this condition already exists which is why those concerned with quality education for children want merit raises for teachers.

  • 413. Mom23  |  April 20, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    So disappointing. I am offline for a few days and return to Soxside back in action. I was hopeful that the muzzle it would give the strong hint to just stop the rhetoric already, but no such luck. I have to say the more she/he blasts Stand, the more I want to check them out. It is clear to tell who true real parents are and soxside has such a clear one sided agenda and is not open to any constructive input. It is so counterproductive to true discussion. Also, thanks for the reminders to fill out the parent survey.

  • 414. SoxSideIrish4  |  April 20, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    #413 You may want to check out Stand. But you may want to see what happened to Rochester when Brizard was CEO:

    http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=3199&section=Article

  • 415. Chris  |  April 20, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    “While doing some research on answers as to why the Chicago Public Schools have fallen so low in terms of morale and public perception”

    Huh. Didn’t realize that the public perception of CPS was *worse* than most of the past 20 years. Guess I didn’t get the memo from my steward.

  • 416. CPS parent survey is open  |  April 20, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    Chris – I was thinking same. Teacher and parent morale and energy is high at my school.

  • 417. Chris  |  April 20, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    CPSpsio:

    I was staying away from the morale issue, b/c I realize I know a *very* small slice of teachers–and presume it’s only their morale being addressed by the author (which I think is reasonably fair). But with that intro, I already knew the conclusion.

  • 418. ChicagoGawker  |  April 20, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    Please let this thread die. Its all been said. Nothing constructive or informative is being discussed any more.

  • 419. Lakeview Dad  |  April 20, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    I second the motion.

  • 420. Mayfair Dad  |  April 23, 2012 at 9:29 am

    Word! (The last word).

  • Schools to get millions in flexible funds to cope with longer day

  • 422. Leah Schuman  |  April 26, 2012 at 10:21 pm

    If you believe our children deserve a school day comparable to those in wealthy suburban districts like Naperville 203 and North Shore 112, you can make your voice heard by signing the petition at http://www.change.org/petitions/longer-school-day-petition Thanks!

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