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	<title>Comments on: Finding your socio-economic tier</title>
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	<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/</link>
	<description>Ramblings of a Chicago Mom who spends too much time thinking about school</description>
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		<title>By: Curt</title>
		<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/#comment-1461</link>
		<dc:creator>Curt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 01:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cpsobsessed.com/?p=740#comment-1461</guid>
		<description>I live in a tier 4 neighborhood on the far southwest (yes beverly/morgan park) but what&#039;s disconcerting is the operational definition of what &quot;rich&quot; is. I can tell you that 80% of my neighbors have middle class incomes (40K - 80K) and have &quot;normal&quot; professions like city jobs (teaching, policemen, firemen). only 20% make 90K or higher (the lawyers, doctors, engineers). The majority of us feel like Tier 3 instead of Tier 4. Of course this is a problem a lot of us on the far southside have (ashburn, mt. greenwood as well). it feels nice to be told that your &quot;upper&quot; class but its a kick in the gut when you learn that geography might hurt your chances of getting into top schools...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in a tier 4 neighborhood on the far southwest (yes beverly/morgan park) but what&#8217;s disconcerting is the operational definition of what &#8220;rich&#8221; is. I can tell you that 80% of my neighbors have middle class incomes (40K &#8211; 80K) and have &#8220;normal&#8221; professions like city jobs (teaching, policemen, firemen). only 20% make 90K or higher (the lawyers, doctors, engineers). The majority of us feel like Tier 3 instead of Tier 4. Of course this is a problem a lot of us on the far southside have (ashburn, mt. greenwood as well). it feels nice to be told that your &#8220;upper&#8221; class but its a kick in the gut when you learn that geography might hurt your chances of getting into top schools&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: KS</title>
		<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/#comment-1443</link>
		<dc:creator>KS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cpsobsessed.com/?p=740#comment-1443</guid>
		<description>Somos americanos - 

We are not merely guessing that children who living in Tier 3 will be at a disadvantage under the new application procedures.  We know for a fact that they will be.  CPS came out with facts and figures which prove that with the new procedures, there will be fewer children selected from Tier 3 than in previous years.  Please look at the attached:

http://cpsmagnet.org/apps/news/show_news.jsp?REC_ID=109719&amp;id=0&amp;rn=8627480

From that CPS website, select the document titled -
Histograms by Selective Enrollment School - with Rank vs Tier - 50 Pct Tier - Cutoff - PopStats - 2009 12 02.pdf 

You can see for yourself how Tier 3 will lose spaces in Magnet Schools.  This is all about geography and has nothing to do with income.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somos americanos &#8211; </p>
<p>We are not merely guessing that children who living in Tier 3 will be at a disadvantage under the new application procedures.  We know for a fact that they will be.  CPS came out with facts and figures which prove that with the new procedures, there will be fewer children selected from Tier 3 than in previous years.  Please look at the attached:</p>
<p><a href="http://cpsmagnet.org/apps/news/show_news.jsp?REC_ID=109719&amp;id=0&amp;rn=8627480" rel="nofollow">http://cpsmagnet.org/apps/news/show_news.jsp?REC_ID=109719&amp;id=0&amp;rn=8627480</a></p>
<p>From that CPS website, select the document titled -<br />
Histograms by Selective Enrollment School &#8211; with Rank vs Tier &#8211; 50 Pct Tier &#8211; Cutoff &#8211; PopStats &#8211; 2009 12 02.pdf </p>
<p>You can see for yourself how Tier 3 will lose spaces in Magnet Schools.  This is all about geography and has nothing to do with income.</p>
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		<title>By: CPSnewbie</title>
		<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/#comment-1442</link>
		<dc:creator>CPSnewbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cpsobsessed.com/?p=740#comment-1442</guid>
		<description>&quot;For all of you in Tier 3 noting wistfully that you have the most competition, let me ask you some questions: 

The median annual income for tier 3 is $44,500. Does your household make more than that? 

And if so, by how much? 

Once you answer this question, I think it will be more evident who is getting the most screwed by the new plan. And it’s not you.

Why do you assume Tier 3 has the most competition?&quot;

The schools I have chosen are closest to Tier 3 and 4 neighborhoods, so most likely members of those areas will apply there as well due to proximity. That makes it harder for my family to get a spot since we are in the Tier 3 group and possibly competing with more applicants for those particular schools.

I&#039;m sorry, but I&#039;m afraid you are assuming what participants on this blog from Tier 3 are like. Our household does not even come close to making that the median income of $44,500. So sometimes it does feel evident who is getting screwed by the new plan, and forgive me if I feel it just might be me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For all of you in Tier 3 noting wistfully that you have the most competition, let me ask you some questions: </p>
<p>The median annual income for tier 3 is $44,500. Does your household make more than that? </p>
<p>And if so, by how much? </p>
<p>Once you answer this question, I think it will be more evident who is getting the most screwed by the new plan. And it’s not you.</p>
<p>Why do you assume Tier 3 has the most competition?&#8221;</p>
<p>The schools I have chosen are closest to Tier 3 and 4 neighborhoods, so most likely members of those areas will apply there as well due to proximity. That makes it harder for my family to get a spot since we are in the Tier 3 group and possibly competing with more applicants for those particular schools.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but I&#8217;m afraid you are assuming what participants on this blog from Tier 3 are like. Our household does not even come close to making that the median income of $44,500. So sometimes it does feel evident who is getting screwed by the new plan, and forgive me if I feel it just might be me.</p>
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		<title>By: Somos americanos</title>
		<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/#comment-1441</link>
		<dc:creator>Somos americanos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 23:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cpsobsessed.com/?p=740#comment-1441</guid>
		<description>For all of you in Tier 3 noting wistfully that you have the most competition, let me ask you some questions: 

The median annual income for tier 3 is $44,500. Does your household make more than that? 

And if so, by how much? 

Once you answer this question, I think it will be more evident who is getting the most screwed by the new plan. And it&#039;s not you.

Why do you assume Tier 3 has the most competition? 

Remember, tier numbers are assigned to neighborhoods. Not to individual household incomes. And, four other factors come into play. Low income families can live in what is considered an upper income tier and vice versa. 

Whomever is best served by this scenario based on information culled a decade ago depends on the number of people and ages of children in the four different geographies that apply. We don&#039;t know in advance who will apply. A test of this system would be to review how many people from each bucket participate. Even so, then you&#039;re making assumptions-- mostly  about the income level of who is applying -- based SOLELY ON WHERE THEY LIVE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For all of you in Tier 3 noting wistfully that you have the most competition, let me ask you some questions: </p>
<p>The median annual income for tier 3 is $44,500. Does your household make more than that? </p>
<p>And if so, by how much? </p>
<p>Once you answer this question, I think it will be more evident who is getting the most screwed by the new plan. And it&#8217;s not you.</p>
<p>Why do you assume Tier 3 has the most competition? </p>
<p>Remember, tier numbers are assigned to neighborhoods. Not to individual household incomes. And, four other factors come into play. Low income families can live in what is considered an upper income tier and vice versa. </p>
<p>Whomever is best served by this scenario based on information culled a decade ago depends on the number of people and ages of children in the four different geographies that apply. We don&#8217;t know in advance who will apply. A test of this system would be to review how many people from each bucket participate. Even so, then you&#8217;re making assumptions&#8211; mostly  about the income level of who is applying &#8212; based SOLELY ON WHERE THEY LIVE.</p>
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		<title>By: hopeful</title>
		<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/#comment-1430</link>
		<dc:creator>hopeful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 02:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cpsobsessed.com/?p=740#comment-1430</guid>
		<description>LR, cps is starting to offer accelerated programs in some schools.  It is called the comprehensive gifted program (even though I consider the term gifted to be misguided in this case, but that is another post).  Disney has this program as do a whole bunch of other schools.  I actually agree with you.  I think all schools should have an accelerated track.  It would certainly help prevent the mass exodus from cps that we currently see.  
I think the other side of the coin, in that publicly funded schools are for everyone, is that the public as a whole has a responsibility to work towards the success of the system.  The system has a responsibility to our children, but we also have a responsibility towards it and towards the future of all children, not just our own.  I think that can take on a lot of different forms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LR, cps is starting to offer accelerated programs in some schools.  It is called the comprehensive gifted program (even though I consider the term gifted to be misguided in this case, but that is another post).  Disney has this program as do a whole bunch of other schools.  I actually agree with you.  I think all schools should have an accelerated track.  It would certainly help prevent the mass exodus from cps that we currently see.<br />
I think the other side of the coin, in that publicly funded schools are for everyone, is that the public as a whole has a responsibility to work towards the success of the system.  The system has a responsibility to our children, but we also have a responsibility towards it and towards the future of all children, not just our own.  I think that can take on a lot of different forms.</p>
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		<title>By: LR</title>
		<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/#comment-1427</link>
		<dc:creator>LR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 06:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cpsobsessed.com/?p=740#comment-1427</guid>
		<description>&quot;Some have argued that those who can afford it should send their kids to private school. CPS, in particular, the SE and RGC/classical schools, should only be for those who cannot afford private school.”

I would like to comment on this thinking, because I think it is totally misguided.  In fact, we have a real-world example of this and it is South Carolina.  All the middle to upper class families send their kids to private schools, and the public schools are basically for the poorest families.  Since the more affluent families do not send their children to public schools, they have no reason to support them through tax revenue and they are starved.  As a result, the private schools in SC keep getting better, while the public schools are among the worst in the nation.

So eliminating middle to upper class families from CPS could really backfire.  

The other issue is a philosophical one.  When there are things that are publicly funded (e.g. schools, park district, libraries, etc.) they are for EVERYONE to use.  Rich, poor, or otherwise.  Maybe some middle to upper class people believe in public education and want to send their kids to public school.  That should be their choice.

One more thing...while I think it is the ultimate goal to offer every child a good education, that is a much more difficult goal to reach than to provide children with appropriate subject material to match their ability.  What I am talking about doesn&#039;t require hiring any new teachers or investing tons of money or mobilizing neighborhoods.  I am only suggesting that kids who have high enough scores, but can&#039;t be accommodated into Gifted or Classical schools, should be guaranteed a &quot;higher track&quot; curriculum within their neighborhood class.  Correct me if I&#039;m wrong, but to my knowledge, CPS doesn&#039;t really do this.  If they did, I think we might start to see some improvement in the neighborhood schools that are just kind of middle of the pack right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Some have argued that those who can afford it should send their kids to private school. CPS, in particular, the SE and RGC/classical schools, should only be for those who cannot afford private school.”</p>
<p>I would like to comment on this thinking, because I think it is totally misguided.  In fact, we have a real-world example of this and it is South Carolina.  All the middle to upper class families send their kids to private schools, and the public schools are basically for the poorest families.  Since the more affluent families do not send their children to public schools, they have no reason to support them through tax revenue and they are starved.  As a result, the private schools in SC keep getting better, while the public schools are among the worst in the nation.</p>
<p>So eliminating middle to upper class families from CPS could really backfire.  </p>
<p>The other issue is a philosophical one.  When there are things that are publicly funded (e.g. schools, park district, libraries, etc.) they are for EVERYONE to use.  Rich, poor, or otherwise.  Maybe some middle to upper class people believe in public education and want to send their kids to public school.  That should be their choice.</p>
<p>One more thing&#8230;while I think it is the ultimate goal to offer every child a good education, that is a much more difficult goal to reach than to provide children with appropriate subject material to match their ability.  What I am talking about doesn&#8217;t require hiring any new teachers or investing tons of money or mobilizing neighborhoods.  I am only suggesting that kids who have high enough scores, but can&#8217;t be accommodated into Gifted or Classical schools, should be guaranteed a &#8220;higher track&#8221; curriculum within their neighborhood class.  Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but to my knowledge, CPS doesn&#8217;t really do this.  If they did, I think we might start to see some improvement in the neighborhood schools that are just kind of middle of the pack right now.</p>
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		<title>By: Mayfair Dad</title>
		<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/#comment-1412</link>
		<dc:creator>Mayfair Dad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cpsobsessed.com/?p=740#comment-1412</guid>
		<description>Middle class white people pay taxes, too.  Actually more taxes since we tend to be home owners, not renters. So the &quot;public good&quot; doesn&#039;t apply to us?

Being born into poverty is an accident of birth - no child chooses to be poor. We need a more comprehensive policy that addresses the disparity of the quality of education offered in poor neighborhoods vs. more affluent neighborhoods. In a perfect school system, there would be no disparity. Focusing on the magnet approach as the only viable solution is a big part of the problem.  All children have a right to a high quality public education, not just lottery winners or children of color.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Middle class white people pay taxes, too.  Actually more taxes since we tend to be home owners, not renters. So the &#8220;public good&#8221; doesn&#8217;t apply to us?</p>
<p>Being born into poverty is an accident of birth &#8211; no child chooses to be poor. We need a more comprehensive policy that addresses the disparity of the quality of education offered in poor neighborhoods vs. more affluent neighborhoods. In a perfect school system, there would be no disparity. Focusing on the magnet approach as the only viable solution is a big part of the problem.  All children have a right to a high quality public education, not just lottery winners or children of color.</p>
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		<title>By: Tier 4</title>
		<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/#comment-1411</link>
		<dc:creator>Tier 4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 03:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cpsobsessed.com/?p=740#comment-1411</guid>
		<description>Mayfair Dad,
The argument is that in a school system that is supposed to be for the public good, a poor minority kid would benefit much more from going to a selective enrollment school than your kids would.  Given your obvious iinterest in your kids&#039; education (as well as being white), your children would probably do well anywhere.  Having them at a top-performing school could thus be seen as a misallocation of public resources.
I am not saying that I agree with that line of reasoning.  In fact, I&#039;m pretty much against it.  But there are quite a few people who believe that the recent changes are just about middle class white people who don&#039;t want to pay for private schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mayfair Dad,<br />
The argument is that in a school system that is supposed to be for the public good, a poor minority kid would benefit much more from going to a selective enrollment school than your kids would.  Given your obvious iinterest in your kids&#8217; education (as well as being white), your children would probably do well anywhere.  Having them at a top-performing school could thus be seen as a misallocation of public resources.<br />
I am not saying that I agree with that line of reasoning.  In fact, I&#8217;m pretty much against it.  But there are quite a few people who believe that the recent changes are just about middle class white people who don&#8217;t want to pay for private schools.</p>
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		<title>By: hopeful</title>
		<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/#comment-1410</link>
		<dc:creator>hopeful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 02:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cpsobsessed.com/?p=740#comment-1410</guid>
		<description>Mayfair dad,
I agree.  We all need to require better schools for everyone.  That will take money and lots of it.  That will take the very best teachers in the nation.  That will take parents in low performing schools to pick up some very, very serious slack.  (My kid is at Hawthorne and while the teachers are the best of the best and I am not kidding, they also have some of the best talent and the most involved and highest income families to work with, like nearly every other high performing school in Chicago.  The families make sure the kids get up and stay up to and above par)

It would take something like Harlem&#039;s Children Zone (essentially a birth to college support program costing millions and unending man hours) to ensure Englewood, Austin and Pilsen schools are as good as Lincoln Park magnets.  I believe it can be done, I just don&#039;t believe we as citizens care enough to make the sacrifice involved to do our part in making sure &quot;all children&quot; get a quality education.  How many people are going to pay more taxes, give their own time to tutor, spend time lobbying for other people&#039;s children?  It would be awesome to see.  But thinking that the chicago system can just &quot;create better schools&quot; is not a good solution.  The system can&#039;t do it.  We all would have to be involved.  Personally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mayfair dad,<br />
I agree.  We all need to require better schools for everyone.  That will take money and lots of it.  That will take the very best teachers in the nation.  That will take parents in low performing schools to pick up some very, very serious slack.  (My kid is at Hawthorne and while the teachers are the best of the best and I am not kidding, they also have some of the best talent and the most involved and highest income families to work with, like nearly every other high performing school in Chicago.  The families make sure the kids get up and stay up to and above par)</p>
<p>It would take something like Harlem&#8217;s Children Zone (essentially a birth to college support program costing millions and unending man hours) to ensure Englewood, Austin and Pilsen schools are as good as Lincoln Park magnets.  I believe it can be done, I just don&#8217;t believe we as citizens care enough to make the sacrifice involved to do our part in making sure &#8220;all children&#8221; get a quality education.  How many people are going to pay more taxes, give their own time to tutor, spend time lobbying for other people&#8217;s children?  It would be awesome to see.  But thinking that the chicago system can just &#8220;create better schools&#8221; is not a good solution.  The system can&#8217;t do it.  We all would have to be involved.  Personally.</p>
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		<title>By: cpsobsessed</title>
		<link>http://cpsobsessed.com/2010/01/24/finding-your-socio-economic-tier/#comment-1409</link>
		<dc:creator>cpsobsessed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cpsobsessed.com/?p=740#comment-1409</guid>
		<description>@James - finding the same thing twice on the CPS site is like winning the lottery.  One in a millions chance.
I&#039;m kicking myself for not saving that link.  I&#039;ll look again.
It wasn&#039;t a huge disadvantage for Tier 3, but it was the one where the ratio was the most off.  I *think* Tiers 1 and 4 had a slight advantage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@James &#8211; finding the same thing twice on the CPS site is like winning the lottery.  One in a millions chance.<br />
I&#8217;m kicking myself for not saving that link.  I&#8217;ll look again.<br />
It wasn&#8217;t a huge disadvantage for Tier 3, but it was the one where the ratio was the most off.  I *think* Tiers 1 and 4 had a slight advantage.</p>
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